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Author Topic: I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX  (Read 16380 times)

Offline spider

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2009, 09:57:03 AM »
I've been using the same Tube screamer and DM-2 since about 1984 through the same silverface Twin Reverb. 25 years,150-250 shows /year and just about every kind of gig from Hardcore to musical theatre and everything in between and not a single failure!(I perform regular maintenance)
I notice that pretty much every multi effects unit has all three pieces of my standard rig prominently featured in it's amp models and effects including the spring reverb and tremelo on my amp.
  My phone is still ringing off the hook in these digital days and nobody has ever asked why I don't use more modern gear.
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And a bunch of other guitars that aren't getting played any more...

I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline Paul Marossy

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2009, 10:25:36 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by emamona

Ehi!
Just in these days, I'm discovering the big world of simulation.
What about using modeling software, a PC (or better a MAC) and a low latency audio board (100 bucks), a usb-midi adapter (20 bucks from china) and a midi footboard (i have a digital rack, and I used some analogic pedal in past), then through PA or the amp?
About that, what you think?

(for vintage-ist: these models are really realistic: the vintage amps fuzz like the real one... I had a JCM2000DSL, and I cannot notice difference.... :D
A noticeable difference, in home playing,  is that my neighbours are happy: now in headset and not on 150w 4x12 cabinet .... :)
This evening I'll bring this setup in studio, let's see...

E.



My argument against digital is more in a live situation thru a guitar amp vs. direct recording. Simulations sound pretty good when recording direct and then played thru a hi-fi system. But to my ears, digital multi-FX units thru a guitar amp don't sound good. Especially if it's simulating a Vox AC-30 for example, and then you play that thru some other kind of amp. The end result sounds bad to me. But it's very hard to go wrong with a Tube Screamer pushing a tube amp into distortion.

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« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 10:26:03 AM by Paul Marossy »

I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline spider

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2009, 11:36:15 AM »
I just love a healthy discourse about gear! I'm with Paul on running an amp simulation into an amp...it just doesn't make sense. I do know players who get a good sound from multi effect/amp simulators though. A singer/songwriter I know here in Canada uses a Pod xtlive somthing or other with a Jamman and a chaos pad straight into the p.a. system and while not my cup of tea you have to admit it works really well and sounds great for his solo stuff!
On the other side of the coin there is also a band here that play really well but all use various digital multi rack thingys and they have the most sterile lifeless sound you can possibly imagine, just horrible....and there is at least one engineer in that band, a professional sound engineer! Needless to say but they don't get alot of people out to their shows...
   I'm trying to wrap my head around the multi effect thing but I suspect I even if I did have one I would just program patches using combinations of the OD, analog delay, spring verb and trem...through the American combo...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 11:40:32 AM by spider »
08 Parker Fly Deluxe in Galaxy Grey
And a bunch of other guitars that aren't getting played any more...

I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline lucgravely

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2009, 12:28:31 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Marossy



My argument against digital is more in a live situation thru a guitar amp vs. direct recording. Simulations sound pretty good when recording direct and then played thru a hi-fi system. But to my ears, digital multi-FX units thru a guitar amp don't sound good. Especially if it's simulating a Vox AC-30 for example, and then you play that thru some other kind of amp. The end result sounds bad to me. But it's very hard to go wrong with a Tube Screamer pushing a tube amp into distortion.

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Agreed.

I bet more than 90% of modern pop and rock recordings have little or no mic on cab tracks anymore. AmpFarm and the likes are what we are hearing. It all sounds perfect. TOO perfect.

Whatever happened to hearing the room when recording? Anyone remember that concept? Now it is just about tight perfect sounds and added "room reverb". Some of my favorite albums are the ones with imperfect guitar tones mixed with bass and drums and vocals making a memorable lasting impression on my experience of listening to that album.

All that said, I think the POD and things of that nature sound better direct than through amps or mic'd up through an amp. I've heard a Vetta II mic'd versus direct out the back of the amp and the direct wins. But A/B with the amp it is simulating and I could tell the difference. Although without the A/B comparison I bet the average listener would never know.
Luc Gravely
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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline gtrbmart

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2009, 01:43:38 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by wkcchampion

@Doombilly
If a pedals breaks onstage, you stop playing as well. And I bet that stompboxes fail much easier than multifx.
Yes multifx are for engineers (like me), the average hobbyist has difficulties programming them. This is why I like them. I want the best, I've got the best.



I don't know what kind of experiences you've had with pedals but as long as you don't do anything stupid with them, they won't break.  The battery might drain or you might step a little TOO hard on the switch but if anything, the multi-fx has many more places where it can screw up.

Saying that multi-fx's are for engineers is a bit pretentious, and this is coming from an engineer in training.

Even the title of this thread is pretentious.  Why would you laugh?  Why wouldn't you just accept that different people like different things?  Would it be so farfetched if someone laughed at YOU for using multi-fx?

Just a few thoughts! [:D]
 

I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline doombilly

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2009, 02:45:53 PM »
hahaha. People laugh at me all the time. mostly due to things not pedal related.

http://illicitizen.com

I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline bno

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2009, 10:32:44 PM »
No one has mentioned style - I would offer that if your style of music requires significant interaction between your signal chain, your amp and your playing, analog may feel more responsive and dynamic, a subtle nuance, but if you are in tune to it, it is there.  It may also be pyschological to the musician, and if the psychology of the configuration fosters your creativity and expressivness, then that is good.  If the thought of playing through a synthetic gadget makes you uncomfortable psychologically, your playing will be affected.  If that's not your style and you're just interested in the sound, sure, digital modeling is just fine.  Most people in the audience can't tell the difference anyway.  So if you think it's good for you, it's good for you.  If you think it stinks for you, then you will suck using it, whatever "it" is.  Doesn't make a rats a$$ difference if you're a rocket scientist or a mechanic, it's all about how YOU, the musician, make your music.  And if you're a committed musician you don't give a rats patootie about what someone else thinks about how you make your music.
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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline wkcchampion

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2009, 03:03:52 AM »
You misunderstood me: "I wanna luagh" is intended "Let's just have fun and smile to the most disagreeing replies we'll read", it is not intented to offend anyone at all!

Using preamps in an amp has SENSE!!! You can give your amp a gazillion sounds (plus the ones it already has) which are 90-95% close.
Listen to the GT-10 review on MusicRadar and tell me if those tones don't sound as realistic...

http://www.musicradar.com/gear/all/guitars/fx/multi-fx/gt-10-167117/review/2

I'll do some on my own perhaps..

Quoting the review:
"As we've mentioned before, many modelling/effects units have now reached such a level of sophistication that they can't be judged on simple functionality. They all make great sounds that do a pretty convincing job of sounding something like real amps.

The difference now is largely down to personal taste and which unit does the best job of satisfying your personal concept of what constitutes a Marshall sound, for example. "

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« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 03:04:45 AM by wkcchampion »
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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline AndyI

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2009, 04:10:12 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by lucgravely

I can hear the difference between digital and analog. When I can no longer hear the difference I will move or entertain using digital modeling and effects. Now I will say digital modulation effects are ok. but I've yet been convinced by a simulated overdrive or amp model.



I agree with this - which is why I use the TC Electronic G-system. It has true bypass and sits in the loop of your head, with one or two FX pre the loop. Yes - it is a digital floorboard system, however, there IS NO DRIVE SOUND. You can't get distortion/drive/crunch out of that unit. It's designed to be used in tandem with analogue distortion - preferably that of the head. The other great thing about the system is that it has three programmable loops that you can use to slot in any old stompboxes that you enjoy. So - if you really crave the sound of the tube screamer over the drive sounds of the Boogie or Bogner or Marshall or whatever head you use, pop it in and use it as part of your per-song setups and/or enable it manually with one of the footswitches. The other great thing about the TC is that it will control your head with midi or latch switching, so you can have the multi-fx select the channel you need on the head to combine with the other sounds - one switch changes everything - head, delay, reverb, compressors, modulations, boost, etc.

I've tried loads of digitally modelled and analogue distortions and drives and still maintain that nothing beats the drive sound you get from a really good amp head, whatever flavour of that might be your personal thing. Only thing that came close for me was the ADA MP-1, but that had 2 x 12AX7 tubes in the unit.

That's why I use a combination of the analogue (head) AND digital sounds. When I have a smaller travel date, I may take the pedaltote with a few stomp boxes, but any large performance that requires absolute reliability and the best tone possible, I take the TC, mounted in a rack with a strobe tuner, high quality switchers and cabling and keep a small multi-fx as a spare for worst case scenarios. I have it set up for Mesa Boogie heads, but there again - whatever works for you.

Of course, all that having been said, when the chips are down and something goes really wrong, you can't be faulted for plugging straight into the amp. The truth is that your audience will rarely know or care. [:D]



Fly Deluxe '96 | Fly Mojo '05 | custom '09 Artist on order | custom HSS Midi Fly on order | bronze fly on order | Mesa Boogie Roadster head + 2 x 12 / 4 x 12 | AER Compact 60 | TC Electronic G System | Lehle stereo switchers and P Split | Taylor 815ce | Taylor 410ce | Fender RR Strat | Axon AX50 | Gibson Chet Atkins SST | Takamine Nylon CP132SC |  Ovation mm68 mandolin | Roland VG-99 | TC Electronic Nova System
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 04:13:02 AM by AndyI »
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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline bembamboo

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2009, 04:40:58 AM »
Boy, this is dangerous.  I started with showmans and supers a long time ago.  Fuzz tone, wah, then a fender tape delay.  Then mxr started its colorful line and i got  allofum, and an echoplex.  Those were the analog days.

Tube amps got bigger (V4s and SVTs)and there was no need for fuzz faces.  Tube crunch has become my style.  Volumes always the problem.  That crunch is the main element of tone.  Reverb, delay, phase, flange are just mild additives. Newer tube amps had loops, series or parralel.  Pitch shift and stereo effects got fun.  Leslies are the best sounding rotaries, but the whole hendrix inspired univibe devices are lovely.

Bending down to the floor during a gig seemed odd, so racks came on the scene for me and I have settled for mini half rack devices.  access to floor pedals is simpler, but that market has so bloomed that I can't even look at all that colorful stuff any more.

I'm about ready to screw the whole rig and just travel with a one rack device, 24 or even 36 bit if available, and just go direct.  There are so many great amps out there that that great tube growel is getting passe' and I'm searching for little nasty sounding preamps, like the modern/vintage marshall head controls, or the fender super sonic controls.  Just don't want to drag the power amp and speaks around anymore.  but stereo is still cool, and the fly is part of that, in a way.  stereo fx for magnetics and stereo fxs for the piezo.

Freddy Waleki tried to sell me rolands vga 88 in 95, and i realize i have gotten nowhere gearwise since then.  liked budahs back then but bought groovetubes amps.  mistake.  could have gotten origional matchless then.  at least they would have appreciated.

my homemade footcontrols for all this stuff got bigger than some of the amps.  jeez!

I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline spider

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« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2009, 05:51:59 PM »
Hey wkcchampion, I have a question...Have you ever tried using the "British combo" simulation in your GT-10 right into your AC-30? I'm curious as to what it would sound like... or would it even sound different? I have never owned a multi effect device so forgive my ignorance, maybe that's a common thing to do?
Do you even use the amp simulation when you are playing through an amp?
 
Hey AndyI!
Good to hear about your experience the TC electronics G-system...That is probably the only system that would really work for me and I have been sort of considering it ever since this thread started and I started doing a little research. I like their angle on the whole Multi effect/switcher concept. Even without actually having one in my hands I can imagine a few practical uses for it and I'm sure I would find more given some time....I can't really say the same for other systems.
08 Parker Fly Deluxe in Galaxy Grey
And a bunch of other guitars that aren't getting played any more...

I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline stevie axeman

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2009, 05:24:30 AM »
Here's my thought - digital modelling is still struggling to simulate analoog - because the various components in any analog poedal (or amp) interact with each other, the guitar and the amp in such a way as to be extremely complex to simulate - albeit - yes - AXE-FX is getting close.
However here's a biggie - digital units tend to provide that "big sound at low volume levels" sound - turn them up, even thru a great PA  and they sound less than good IMHO. I've tried it and didn't like it (neither did my audience). Its very difficult to do thsi effectively - Adrain Belew does a great job however !
Instead try some analog pedals ( maybe with a smatterng of digi reverb/chorus) thru a properly designed tube amp- and at volume - the sound is balanced and true.
I liken digi fx as being like listening to an MP3 at low volume on small hifi - and that will never scale up to sound the same as a balanced rig at stage volume.
AndyI has got a great balance - quality modulation/delay effects with great A/D/A processing, and a quality amp rig

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline wkcchampion

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2009, 05:39:17 AM »
Yes, I used the preamp in my GT-10. The VO Drive sounds pretty credible!
Of course I do!!! I can give my amp a gazillion sounds it doesn't have! I can make my ac30 sounds like a Bassman or my Kustom as a Rectifier, for example. I just by pass its own preamp and use the GT-10 preamp. I'd say 90-95% close, they work wicked.
It's like having 33 amps on stage together. Yes, they won't sound 100% exact, but pretty close if you tweak your patches good. So every song has its own sound (amp and FX)... I play in a cover band and this comes really useful.
Also, I can play every amp I want, I still have roughly the same sounds. If I change map, I just set the Global EQ differently to match :)

Welcome to the world of MultiFX! This and much much more ;)

quote:
Originally posted by spider

Hey wkcchampion, I have a question...Have you ever tried using the "British combo" simulation in your GT-10 right into your AC-30? I'm curious as to what it would sound like... or would it even sound different? I have never owned a multi effect device so forgive my ignorance, maybe that's a common thing to do?
Do you even use the amp simulation when you are playing through an amp?
 
Hey AndyI!
Good to hear about your experience the TC electronics G-system...That is probably the only system that would really work for me and I have been sort of considering it ever since this thread started and I started doing a little research. I like their angle on the whole Multi effect/switcher concept. Even without actually having one in my hands I can imagine a few practical uses for it and I'm sure I would find more given some time....I can't really say the same for other systems.

08 Parker Fly Deluxe in Galaxy Grey
And a bunch of other guitars that aren't getting played any more...



---------
Pregno Splatter
http://pregnosplatter.altervista.org

Pearl White 2008 Fly Mojo :)
Majik Blue 1995 Fly Deluxe (Gen1 Di Marzio PUs)
2 VOX AC30s (one CC2 and one CC2X) and Kustom Quad 100HD Full Stack
Boss GT-10
(more gear on my website)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 05:41:59 AM by wkcchampion »
---------
Marco

My Fly bridge setup guide:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-bURNmuDq2-a0VPd3lPZldwVmc/view?usp=sharing

Pearl White 2008 Fly Mojo (Fralin PUs)
"Eldy" / Majik Blue 1995 Fly Deluxe (Gen1 PUs)
Various vintage and modern Marshall/Vox/Laney amps
Rockman + other rack stuff
Boss GT-100

I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline spider

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« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2009, 08:52:55 AM »
Oh! I see! You are only using the power amp of your AC-30...I wasn't aware that you could bypass the pre amp until I looked at the specs of of the AC-30 cc2...that makes sense then..Can you, at the same time, use the effects of the GT-10 in the effects loop of the the CC2?
I guess I could just look up the specs of the GT-10 as well!
08 Parker Fly Deluxe in Galaxy Grey
And a bunch of other guitars that aren't getting played any more...

I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX

Offline Paul Marossy

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I wanna laugh: single pedals Vs multiFX
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2009, 10:14:07 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by stevie axeman

However here's a biggie - digital units tend to provide that "big sound at low volume levels" sound - turn them up, even thru a great PA  and they sound less than good IMHO. I've tried it and didn't like it (neither did my audience). Its very difficult to do thsi effectively - Adrain Belew does a great job however !
Instead try some analog pedals ( maybe with a smatterng of digi reverb/chorus) thru a properly designed tube amp- and at volume - the sound is balanced and true.
I liken digi fx as being like listening to an MP3 at low volume on small hifi - and that will never scale up to sound the same as a balanced rig at stage volume.



I agree. The only thing digital in my usual rig is my Boss DD-5 delay. And I only have that because it gives me much longer delay times than an analog delay can. I still prefer an analog delay over a digital delay - it just sounds a lot warmer.

Here's another point. Even if you run your digital FX modelling whatever straight into the power amp and bypass the preamp altogether, you still have the guitar speaker issue. Guitar speakers are designed to sound a specific way, and have their limitations. I personally think it sounds like poo to have some amp simulation going thru a guitar amp. It just sounds very lame to me. It's not anywhere near as dynamic as getting the sound you want in an authentic way in a live setting. Recording direct is another story, but for live use, I'll pass.

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