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Author Topic: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts  (Read 1947 times)

Offline escape from gorilla city

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Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« on: March 30, 2017, 11:14:00 PM »
Howdy,

I thought I had all of the parts assembled to get my DF824 trem working (purchased without any bridge assembly) but it really seems like the threaded rod that adjusts the spring tension is much longer than it should be. It seems like there just isn't enough room in the cavity to insert the spring. Is there a size difference for this threaded rod between models? If so, does anyone know the proper length the rod needs to be cu to? The step-stop I found is definitely the pre-refined version, as it has the little switch on it vs the hole for the adjustment tool. Can that piece be used in the DF?

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline sybersitizen

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2017, 12:30:42 AM »
If it's the same as a Fly, the rod/bolt/thingy needs to be embedded into a hole in the cavity. There's a bushing that actually holds it stationary.



'01 Fly Deluxe|'69 SG Standard|'69 EB-3|Pignose Strat|Savannah SGO-16CE|Glen Burton GE47|Dean Vendetta 7-String|Loog 3-String|Fishman Aura Spectrum|Roland Amplifiers

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline escape from gorilla city

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2017, 09:45:10 AM »
Thanks for the pic. I do have the plastic bushing embedded. It just seems like the rod protrudes so far into the cavity that there is no way to fit the spring:


Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline sybersitizen

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2017, 11:14:47 AM »
I see. All I can tell ya is that (in a Fly) the spacing should be such that the spring will fall out when all the compression is released. Here's another photo of a working setup:



Maybe the cavity and the bolt thingy are shorter in the DFs. Somebody who owns one will have to answer that.
'01 Fly Deluxe|'69 SG Standard|'69 EB-3|Pignose Strat|Savannah SGO-16CE|Glen Burton GE47|Dean Vendetta 7-String|Loog 3-String|Fishman Aura Spectrum|Roland Amplifiers

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline Big Swifty

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 01:36:22 AM »
It's been a while since i toyed with the trem, but...

Seems to me that if you screw the adjuster wheel thing, it should move the rod back and forth no?

(or how else is it going to adjust tension? )

So you could back it off a fair bit

And as syber said, the spring is loose-ish when tension is released, and that's how you get it in there. tension is released when trem pulled up.

There must be a post around here someplace with the process outlined..

Anyways, goodluck

B.S.

94 Fly Deluxe
2010 DF 524
The system can't get you in your dreams.

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline escape from gorilla city

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 09:31:38 AM »
That is the deepest the bar can be inserted into the bushing, the wheel is not providing any offset. From the pictures it does look like the DF cavity is much shorter.

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline billy

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 12:39:14 PM »
At first I was like, nah, that's crazy. After a moment of reflection I realized it might still be likely.


Captain Obvious for a moment here:

The bushing in the cavity only stops the rod from rotating. The rod slides in and out when the adjuster nut turns against the cavity edge. But I think you and previous posts got that already. Just a note for the archives.

CO out.

Here's my Df:



I didn't want to pull it all apart but this should give an idea.  I guess it could be the same length as previous versions, but maybe it just doesn't engage as deeply in pre refined versions? Cavity does seem different.

I also have a rod I picked up on eBay which is 1.5 in long. Seems sort of consistent with my DF. But that doesn't eliminate the possibility of a longer rod for other parkers. Or a shorter rod in my df.

Where did you get this? Is it a factory reject shell?  Anything might be possible in that case, including a shallow hole or something jammed inside.

At any rate, I think you could trim the rod to 1.25 in without issue. I'd check the length and hole depth first though. Pix if you can.

I love these kinds of projects. Keep us posted!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 01:19:13 PM by billy »
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline escape from gorilla city

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 02:56:57 PM »
It appears the cavity is definitely closer to the heel end of the guitar regardless of the cavity length itself. This was an unfinished custom shop guitar.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 02:59:12 PM by escape from gorilla city »

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline billy

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2017, 03:32:27 PM »
Ok so there's a reason it wasn't finished. This might be it.

looking at the new pix you almost definitely have a more shallow hole. The cavity looks a bit low but not more than 1/4". 

How long is the rod? 

Also, the real issue might not be the cavity size/location or the hole depth, but rather the posts and bridge route are also low. That would reduce the space for the spring.

A quick check to see if your saddles are where they should be relative to fret 12 is probably worth doing. Hope it's not off there.

Any of it can be fixed but some things are a lot more involved than others.

Not at home right now or I'd check my cavity length.  (Off topic, but I'm actually working on back plates right now. The router has been mechanically adjusted to allow different spindle speeds but either electrical updates are not done or software enabled. :(  )

« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 03:38:58 PM by billy »
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline escape from gorilla city

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2017, 05:20:09 PM »
The scale length is 25.5 on the money and everything looks routed correctly on the top. I have a couple rods and they're both 1.5 inches long. The spring cavity is a hair over 4.25 inches long. I think I will attempt a shortening of the rod. It definitely protrudes into the cavity on my guitar more than it seems to on yours.

On thing I did notice is that the spring cavity route is shorter on the back of the guitar than the front. Whereas I expected a flat wall where the step stop anchors there is actually a lip. I'm unfamiliar with how it's supposed to look as both my flys are hardtails.

Thank you for your help! I've been wanting to get this shell playable for about 2 years and have been stalking parts patiently. I think it's too much to expect to find the proper step stop, but I hope I can get the bridge working to some extent. I'm sure I'll be hunting for a back plate if this is possible especially if the cavity is routed incorrectly.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 05:32:47 PM by escape from gorilla city »

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline jjozwia

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2017, 08:12:34 PM »
Where is the stop step on bridge side?

Anyhow that really looks like should be in the cavity more.  When flipped a sping for a prototype Mojo/DF today it was about 5 threads to get to point when as loose as would go and when spring would fall out raising the trem.  Mine looks around that many threads when tightened. 

One of my Mojo's is drilled short like that too (or something in there)... ended up blocking that one after too much fighting with it.

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline escape from gorilla city

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2017, 09:24:23 PM »
The step stop I have is useless. I don't know if it's the cavity or the fact that it's a pre refined version, but the unblocked mode is the only way it will fit in the cavity and then it acts blocked.

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline ZemanG2

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 12:25:34 PM »
The step stop if you bought it off eBay is a tad different size. But its really a question of the body cavity itself.
My Mojo has a cavity of 11.45 cm my Midi Mojo Fly has a cavity of 11.5 cm. So that's 4.5" and 4.52" respectively. What is the cavity size of the DF? Sorry no pictures, I just wanted to measure real quick.
I have guitars, most are beyond my playing level, but I love them all!

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline escape from gorilla city

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 12:51:18 PM »
The DF cavity is just a little over 4.25 inches.

Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts

Offline billy

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Re: Difference between Fly and DF824 trem parts
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2017, 01:38:02 PM »
Yeah, I think you're 1/4" short, and probably 1/8-1/4" low. It would explain the lip near the step stop too.

What I think happened was that someone running the router for the cavity didn't account for a different bit size, and/or neglected to zero the bit at center. So, it's a little low and a little short. Super easy mistake to make.

Thinking about how they would drill the hole for the rod, this makes sense too. A shorter cavity and necessary fixture might prevent the drill from being able to fit into the cavity far enough to go the necessary depth.

Combine all this stuff together, and you don't have room to retract the rod far enough for the spring, and the 1/4" space you need for the step stop isn't there. Plus there's a lip.

Fortunately, that lip can be your best friend in terms of fixing this. You just need a router and a flush trim bit with the bearing guide at the bottom.  Route that lip off with very shallow cuts until you're flush to the topside route. If needed, you can shim the step stop to get it where you need it.

Then trimming the rod to 1.25" or drilling the hole deeper should get you a working trem.

Looks like a great shell, is it ash?  Should be awesome, can't wait to see how it turns out.
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]