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Author Topic: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project  (Read 1014 times)

Offline vjmanzo

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2018, 09:16:23 PM »
@billy
Also, just to clarify:
Given the soft bass wood of most fly necks, wood compression near the anchors is in my mind the greatest risk.  A mojo might be a good choice if possible.
You're suggesting the Mojo because of the strength of mahogany vs. basswood, correct?
Fly Mojo (2005), Fly Deluxe [w/Sustainiac] (2007), Fly Mojo [w/Sustainiac] (2008), Fly Concert (1997), Fly Classic (2003), Fly Deluxe (1997), Fly Artist (2010), Fly Bass FB-4 (2003) || More Info

Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline billy

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2018, 09:20:32 AM »
Yeah, mahogany is still relatively soft in the hardwoods category, but basswood is just slightly harder than balsa.  Its a balancing act between ability to flex without splitting and resisting compression. Both have the benefits of being easy to work and retain great dimensional stability.

I was thinking that the floating bridge might lead to some tuning issues, so hardtail is still probably the way to go.  There's probably a very good reason you don't see 12 string floyds.  lol   :P

One other thought is that it might make sense to do a filler block mod like I did on my mojo TOM project- I don't think a TOM is the right way to go but there are other 12 string bridges that might make life a lot easier.  (If you did want to try adding a filler block, let me know, I'm sure I can help.)

This might also be an easy thing with a parker hardtail- possibly no cnc work or wood filler blocks, much like the kahler mod Patzag did a while ago.  And as I think about it, there is probably an easy way to mod the fly hardtail bridge's mounting features if you had to, ie beefier hardware or something. 

Are you going to CNC new saddles?  Or mod existing?

You might want to add a thin aluminum (or similar) plate under the tuning machines- the carbon fiber is good but the extra 6 holes will probably take away a lot of rigidity.  cool idea there.

The last thing is that all these comments are my opinions only- I like to think they're relatively informed, but opinion all the same, lol.   ;D  Feel free to contact me directly if you want, though always great to see things like this on the forum.

You'll get a much better sense of things once you have parts in hand and make some practice pieces.

Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline vjmanzo

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2018, 10:58:26 AM »
Thanks, Billy. I appreciate the info and will most likely reach out to you offline.

Thanks for the recommendation about the tuning peg reinforcement. My plan is to mod existing saddles, but I’m also 3D scanning/modeling/CNCing saddles as well, so I’ll hopefully make a decision on those two options in the next few weeks. I’ll, of course, keep everyone posted; I’m actually 3D modeling quite a few Parker parts.

I’m on the lookout, now, for a suitable guitar to work with; looks like a hardtail Mojo would be ideal, but probably like trying to find a unicorn. :) I’ll keep an eye open for any hardtail, but if anyone has any leads beyond Reverb and eBay, please PM me.
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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline Patzag

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2018, 02:47:29 PM »
You guys can talk privately as much as you want to but please keep the thread alive!
Teal Fly Classic 1998 / White Deluxe Hard Tail 1994 /Axe FX II

Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline vjmanzo

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2018, 02:50:49 PM »
Definitely!! No worries!! Pics and videos to come!
Fly Mojo (2005), Fly Deluxe [w/Sustainiac] (2007), Fly Mojo [w/Sustainiac] (2008), Fly Concert (1997), Fly Classic (2003), Fly Deluxe (1997), Fly Artist (2010), Fly Bass FB-4 (2003) || More Info

Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline Big Swifty

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2018, 03:47:52 PM »
Yeah!

Love a good build thread.

B.S.
94 Fly Deluxe
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The system can't get you in your dreams.

Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline ParkerPlayer

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2018, 04:38:45 PM »
I agree !   It's fun to hear about new, creative stuff being done with Parkers. 
'95 Fly Deluxe, Majik Blue, Hard Tail
'96 Fly Classic, Transparent Red 
'98 Fly Classic, Transparent Red
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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline vjmanzo

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2018, 05:00:07 PM »
Thanks guys! When I got my first Parker back 2005, I knew I never wanted to play anything else! I think many of us share that sentiment.

I’m fortunate to, now, have a bunch of talented engineering students working with me who can help execute some of these ideas. I will definitely keep everyone posted and share detailed information if/when we’re successful!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 05:02:30 PM by vjmanzo »
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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline Mossman

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2018, 08:31:40 PM »

Evidence suggests that the Gibson guys did not trust the standard 6-string neck to bear the stress of the extra strings. What they did there was to 'slide' the fretboard deeper into the body, thereby shortening the overall length of the neck, presumably reducing the risk of any issues. You can see that the bridge was correspondingly pushed deeper to maintain the same scale length. In order to maintain consistency between the 12- and 6-string parts of the EDS 1275, the 6-string neck and bridge were restructured as well. A side effect is that the upper frets of the EDS 1275 are harder to reach.

I think the design decision to 'shorten' the Gibson doubleneck fretboards was because of the balance problem, not so much to accommodate extra string tension.  As it stands, the 1275 is neck heavy and tends to dive... if they had extended the necks out another inch, it would have been unplayable.  I think most doubleneck designs struggle with this.  I have had Carvin, Carparelli, BC Rich and Gretsch doublenecks and they all tend to neck dive when on the strap if the neck attaches at the usual, six string, location.  The BC Rich was probably the best balanced because its 12 string headstock weighed no more than a six (because six strings tuned at the body).
1994 Fly Deluxe (Black)
1998 Fly Deluxe (Plum)
1999 Fly Deluxe (Green)
2006 Refined Fly Classic (Natural)
2008 Refined Fly Deluxe (Heather Grey)
1998 NiteFly NVF4 (White)
1999 NiteFly NVF7 (Black)
2000 NiteFly SA (Transparent Blue)
2006 NiteFly M (Oil & Wax)
2006 NiteFly SA (Sunburst)

Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline vjmanzo

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Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2018, 08:17:42 PM »
Hi everyone! Here’s an update on my 12-string Fly project.

The bridge:
The 12-string bridge prototype is complete. My students here at WPI have been working with me and have modeled both the fixed bridge and the floating bridge. Here is a 3D model CAD view of the floating bridge with 12 custom saddle pieces:


Note: the tremolo bushing hole shown in this image will be removed from the final version we fabricate

Bridge Hole Spacings
The hole spacings for the 12-string were calculated using this tool that my students also developed this term:

12-String Spacing Calculator | mirror link
Note: in order to allow you to use the spreadsheet, but not overwrite it, the links above will open a Google Doc link, which will prompt you to copy the file to your own Google Drive

We’ll use these same spacings for the nut once we get to that point.

The neck:
The neck requirements for the added tension suggested that I’d have to go with a mahogany or redwood neck as opposed to the more common basswood necks. Since RP Flys are very rare and limited, a Mojo is probably best suited for this mod since the mahogany, I suspect, has the best chance of tolerating the added tension (though, if this works, I’d like to try this with a Deluxe).

Floating bridge:
Since a hardtail Mojo is also rare, I’ve decided to proceed with the trying to make the floating bridge mod we made work with the notion that, if properly blocked, it will operate like a fixed bridge in terms of tuning stability. I have no concerns about post-leaning or too few points of contact.

The saddles:
We modeled the original saddles and then decided to come up with a variation that provides the original support concept and mounting screw concept with a reduced profile. As shown in the image, 12 stainless steel saddles (a pair of a "left" and a "right" saddle) will be screwed into the new bridge using a similar mechanism as the original bridge, but with a small screw. The idea, then, is that we will desolder the piezo sensors from the Graphtec ghost saddles and solder them into the underside of these new saddles.

Next Steps:
My students and I are actively working on this and will have an actual version of the bridge and saddles to show in a few weeks! At this point, as described in this Classified request, I am looking to buy a Fly Mojo (or possibly an RP) to begin modifying toward this end. I have an eye open on Reverb and eBay, but if you have any leads or even if you have a gutted shell or a beater (as long as there are no structural issues or factory rejects), please PM me; it’s okay if it has no internal parts as long as it’s got all of the holes in the right spots, all frets, working truss rod, etc. The main requirement here is that it's a Mojo and that you have no sentimental attachments to the guitar in case the guitar accidentally ends up “detached” from itself! :) Bad joke.

When this is all done, I’ll be happy to share the CNC files with anyone interested in performing this mod.

More soon!

V.J.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 09:14:58 PM by vjmanzo »
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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline billy

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2018, 12:41:44 PM »
Vj, this is great stuff!

one thing to mention before I forget:  http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/

There are a few small tweaks you could consider:

* a little more clearance at the end of the saddles, where the strings pass through the "tailpiece."  This will make it a lot easier to change the strings and prevent any potential pinching.
* a little more clearance between saddles just to cover machining tolerances
* a small radius around the edge of the saddles' top edges, and the pocket too.
* if there's going to be any paint or powder coating, make sure there's an allowance for that, though the polished aluminum looks pretty cool

I can help with any cad surfacing or fine tweaks if you need it.

btw agree with the mossman balance theory
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline vjmanzo

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2018, 12:52:16 PM »
Thanks, Billy, for the good suggestions and resource. I’ll pass these on to the guys in my lab.

We’re probably not going to do any sort of surface coating on the bridge, but I’m curious if you know what that black material is?  We did it density test to confirm that the bridge is aluminum, but we didn’t know about that coating.
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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline billy

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2018, 03:00:09 PM »
you bet, lots of cool stuff you guys did there. 

I don't know for sure, but I believe that coating is powder coat.  Which means it's either polyester, epoxy, or ceramic.  I'm leaning towards polyester.  Powder coating is a ton of fun, and by far my favorite way to finish metals.

The bridge is definitely aluminum, possibly 6061 or 7075.

Might be cool to think about diy anodizing- it's not the simplest thing in the world to do, but doesn't add any thickness.  The colors can be pretty cool.

You will want some kind of protective coating on there, oxidized aluminum can be pretty nasty.  Some kind of chromate, alodine, etc. at a minimum if you don't powder coat.

For the 3d cad, try to be sure the radii are at least G1 continuous or it can add some unwelcome artifacts in CNC.  Not critical for a one off, but G2 & G3 are best if you can do it.
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline vjmanzo

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2018, 03:46:16 PM »
Excellent! Thanks!
Fly Mojo (2005), Fly Deluxe [w/Sustainiac] (2007), Fly Mojo [w/Sustainiac] (2008), Fly Concert (1997), Fly Classic (2003), Fly Deluxe (1997), Fly Artist (2010), Fly Bass FB-4 (2003) || More Info

Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project

Offline Big Swifty

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Re: Tension Question for Parker Fly 12-String Hybrid Project
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2018, 05:39:43 AM »
Wowsers, that's impressive!

And having your "students" build you a new guitar...feindishly clever!

B.S.
94 Fly Deluxe
2010 DF 524
The system can't get you in your dreams.