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Author Topic: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet  (Read 419 times)

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« on: May 19, 2018, 02:29:14 PM »
Hello Fly-Fans,
this doofus here needs your help-.-.
I changed the strings on my refined Fly and the dogbone (not the tiny balls, but the long brick with two ball shapes on top)
fell out. I was lucky to find it.
I cleaned it and based on recommendations, I put it back in and added a small amount of thin superglue down the sides (still too much in hindsight). I used a tiny syringe and put a drop on the front and back.
After the new strings were on and the vibrato was set perfectly...time to play! But the piezo on the E-String is now very quiet compared to the high output of the other strings. I can still hear it though, even at living room volume.

What can I do? Get it out and use the tiniest amount of glue before putting it in?
Should the glue be on the bottom (I thought that would be bad since the direct contact to the piezo element would be lost)

How do I get it out? 

Acetone? Would that damage the piezo?

Cut the glue with a tiny Blade in the gap? (I tried with a fresh razorblade and a scalpel)

Can i glue a nail to the top of the dogbone and use pliers? (I can't grab it at the moment)

How exactly were they glued in at the factory?

If I can fix this, I got a fully functional almost damage free Fly. I love the weight and tone.

If I can't get it out no matter what, is there a guide to solder in a new piezo saddle? (I'd rather reuse that insert)
Which types can I use with the preamp of the refined Fly?

Thank you all, and I hope you can enjoy your weekend.


EDIT: added a picture of the same bridge as mine:


That little inserts the strings rest upon...
(I got the DiMarzio PUs)




« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 03:51:12 AM by That_is_a_Knoife »

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2018, 07:16:57 AM »
I know this is very specific...I get why non of you want or can't answer.
But I'll keep you informed about my problem.
Since I'm such a smart guy...I bought a quality Superglue, Loctite 406(originally purchased to flood fretslots in other guitars).
So this Superglue doesn't really give a crap about all sorts of solvents...acetone, pure alcohol, thinners.
The only thing it doesn't like is either water for 500 hours or just heat.
100-120°C are needed...less when I heat it a long period of time (see above)
The Question is if the piezo and the glue that is holding it will survive the temperature.

I'll give it a try with a soldering iron (I have one with a ceramic heating element allowing me to set to a certain temperature) and maybe heat a piece of guitar string or a needle to get in the space in between.

I'll add some picture should I succeed.


Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline Big Swifty

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2018, 12:17:15 PM »
Hiya Knoife,

I know v little about these particular saddles, can't help with specifics about how they were held in place etc.

Sounds like there is a bit too much super glue between the saddle and the pickup, creating a bit of a cushion.

Best bet to get it back out is (not to much) heat i reckon. This opinion is based upon watching my dad who was a jeweller deal with superglued stones and pearls, heat the setting around the stone just enough to soften the glue etc. It works, but don't know how you're going to get a grip on the dog-bone...maybe a pin down the side to lever it out? I would apply heat/soldering iron directly to the dog-bone in little bits and then try see if it's loose, try again etc etc

There has been discussion here in the past about these saddles, try a full search with all the terms you can think of if you haven't done so already, there is a bit of info around.

Can't be of more help, my fly has the original saddles so haven't taken much notice of these ones, except i think pretty much everyone has had problems with them at some point!

Anyways, we're all watching and good luck!  :)

B.S.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 12:20:12 PM by Big Swifty »
94 Fly Deluxe
2010 DF 524
The system can't get you in your dreams.

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline ParkerPlayer

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2018, 02:45:22 PM »
Sorry to hear about your problem.  I suspect the cause of your low output is that the glue is holding the dog bone to the sides of the cavity in which the dog bone sits.  This means the string force cannot push the dog bone against the piezo element which relies on force to do it's job.  There may be a small amount of glue bridging the gap between the piezo and dog bone, that would explain why you do get some output.   I don't have the answer to how best to remove it (though Swifty's idea sounds wise.)  When you do reinstall the dog bone, you might consider not using glue.  Also, you may need to clean the glue off of the piezo in order to get solid contact.

good luck.
'95 Fly Deluxe, Majik Blue, Hard Tail
'96 Fly Classic, Transparent Red 
'98 Fly Classic, Transparent Red
'99 Fly Supreme, Honey
'09 Fly Artist, Custom Hard Tail

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2018, 03:06:54 PM »
Thx for you input. I'll try it. I won't get any leverage, it's just too tight.

@ParkerPlayer:
I think that is case. It's secured to the cavity walls. I don't think it got under the dogbone since it was already sitting in there. It wasn't enough glue to lift up the dogbone. Maybe I'm lucky with a hot needle going all around the cavity, if not I'll heat the dogbone (at least the small part will reach a high temperature easily compared to the rest.

I also thought about cooling it down with a contact wart kit that works by just pressing it on.
Thing is again, the glue...looked at the data sheet and it works even better at up to -40°C (same in °F)

What is worse for piezo? Heat (120°C=248°F) or cold way below -40°C (/°F)

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline ParkerPlayer

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 04:55:41 PM »
I think your best chance of getting the dog bone out without damaging the piezo would be to heat the dog-bone directly as hot as possible for very short periods of time.  This will minimize the heat transfer to other parts.
Billy may have some ideas on how best to do this.  Billy ?
'95 Fly Deluxe, Majik Blue, Hard Tail
'96 Fly Classic, Transparent Red 
'98 Fly Classic, Transparent Red
'99 Fly Supreme, Honey
'09 Fly Artist, Custom Hard Tail

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline Mr303

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 05:10:45 PM »
I was just reading this and.....


The manufacturers recommended method to soften and remove superglue (cyanoacrylate) is to use acetone (sparingly).

I’ve only used heat for Loctite type glues not SG.

In a former career I serviced self contained breathing apparatus for fire departments and there are 10-14 different adhesives used in the servicing of the high and low pressure valves.
Acetone was recommended to remove most (cyano,blue,yellow) heat was for red and orange, and black Loctite could not be removed period. If black Loctite got on anything it didn’t come off once it cured.


Sometimes “Goof-Off” works too.

If you freeze it sometimes it will shatter with a focused blow.

I’ve found cutting or scraping to yield unsatisfactory results with damage.

That’s my 2 cents worth.

'94 Fly hard tail
'97 Fly Deluxe
'08 PM20 Pro 3x3 headstock
PDF 105
PDF 70 modded
and a few others that are boat anchors.
‘43 Epi Blackstone
Godin 5th ave p90

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2018, 07:54:25 AM »
Thank you for your input.
I called Henkel (loctite company) and asked specifically about that used CA-Glue (Loctite 406)
Best bet they say is heat like I've seen it in the data sheet. I know that Loctite is usually an equivalent for their threat locking products, but that's one of their many CA-Glues also sold under the Loctite name)

It can withstand very low temperature and still has elasticity left (one of my reasons for choosing it for the fretslots of other guitars to make small wood movements possible.) So it won't break like glass like other CA-glues.

I'll focus on heat first. I'll try it on the weekend. I'll be back. :-X

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline billy

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2018, 10:18:02 AM »
Sorry to hear about your problem.  I suspect the cause of your low output is that the glue is holding the dog bone to the sides of the cavity in which the dog bone sits.  This means the string force cannot push the dog bone against the piezo element which relies on force to do it's job.  There may be a small amount of glue bridging the gap between the piezo and dog bone, that would explain why you do get some output.   I don't have the answer to how best to remove it (though Swifty's idea sounds wise.)  When you do reinstall the dog bone, you might consider not using glue.  Also, you may need to clean the glue off of the piezo in order to get solid contact.

good luck.

IMHO, this is right on the money, except I would add a little glue to hold it in place afterwards.  The loctite 406 is appropriate- its a cyanoacrylate ("superglue"), don't confuse it with their thread locking products.

Piezos need pressure to work properly- less pressure means less sound.  Worst case, it will even buzz. 

I have no direct experience with the dog bone style of saddles, but its likely that someone here may have a spare if they swapped their dogbones out for a different style.  Changing it isn't too hard, though you'll have to remove the bridge to solder the connections.  Each saddle has a signal and a ground connection, and dogbone era does this directly under the bridge.  The parker site has a retrofit guide for graphtech saddles under support, and there's some old posts here about swapping saddles too.

I do have some deep experience with cyanoacrylate glues, we used them quite a bit in a previous job.  The way they usually fail is due to their relatively poor sheer strength. 

Which means if you can apply a sharp blow parallel to the joint's surface plane, you can probably break the bond more easily than you'd expect.  A little heat is a great idea too.  I'd heat it gently and try a small flatblade screwdriver near the widest side of the dogbone, then give it a small sharp tap with a tack hammer.  Then scrape the excess glue off all surfaces, clamp gently and reglue. 

That said, I don't know how well the piezo will react to heat, or if the glue will take a little bit of the piezo with it when the joint sheers.  I'd try to remove and reglue first, if that doesn't work then see if anyone has a spare/ebay.  Finally, you have a full retrofit as your failsafe approach.

Good luck!
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2018, 11:35:58 AM »
Thank you!
Quote
...clamp gently...

Do you mean I should put pressure on the dogbone before I glue it?
I had no good experience to put glue on the long sides, so where should I put the glue?
I thought about adding some glue after the string is on top, but the small vibrations during the curing process won't be helpful. I just don't know where to put the glue if I don't want to restrict the movement of the little thing.
Put it down the sides= restricted movement
Put it underneath = loss of direct contact with the piezo element

I can't imagine that I'd get it out, reglue it and I get the same bolagna all over again.
Maybe I just put a tiny drop of the glue in a mixing dent, dip in a toothpick and just touch the short side on two points. The most movement of the strings is vertical. I got no other ideas where to put the glue-.-

Well, first I have to get it out.

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline billy

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2018, 11:41:10 AM »
Thank you!
Quote
...clamp gently...


Maybe I just put a tiny drop of the glue in a mixing dent, dip in a toothpick and just touch the short side on two points.

Well, first I have to get it out.

If you remove the saddle from the bridge (no need to remove the wires) then you could use a clothes pin (the spring kind) to clamp, then add a drop of glue on either side.  The glue should wick around the perimeter. 

You want good surface to surface contact of the dogbone to the piezo and for the glue to hold it when changing strings. 
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 01:58:36 PM »
I honestly don't get it.
If i glue it to the "walls" of the cavity, it can't really move. That is how I ended up like this.
It should have good contact to the piezo and stay on it so I won't loose it.
Should I glue it on top of the piezo with a tiny drop on the bottom?

Besides the clamping with the pin, this is exactly what I did after I thoroughly cleaned the dogbone to prepare the surface for the glue. I'm really confused which surface should be glued to what. I'm sorry if I seem a little dense. I just don't want to mess this up again.



Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline billy

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 02:08:44 PM »
apologies for being unclear, you're not dense.  Much is lost in text.  I will try to make some images that should clear things up- I'd love to help you. 

Right now I can't do that, but I will soon if you want.  If you can post 1-2 pictures that will help too.

To explain a little in the meantime, the main difference here is that I don't think you had good surface to surface contact on the bottom of the dogbone to the top of the piezo- not enough pressure on the piezo.

That glue can cure instantly on contact so it's very possible that it bonded before the dogbone was fully flush. 
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline sybersitizen

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2018, 05:10:21 PM »
I would think the best way to re-glue the thing is to string the guitar and tune it up first. Just a guess, but the saddle would presumably be under exactly the right pressure automatically. Any 'small vibrations during the curing process' that you're concerned about can be eliminated with a little wad of cloth between the string and its neighbor.

I'm thankful that my Deluxe has the original 'screw-head' saddles that have never presented any issues for me. They seem to be far more reliable than later types.
'01 Fly Deluxe|'69 SG Standard|'69 EB-3|Pignose Strat|Savannah SGO-16CE|Fishman Aura Spectrum|Roland Amplifiers

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2018, 12:33:53 AM »
I'll post a few pictures as soon as I got time to take it out.
Your more detailed description would be highly appreciated.

@sybercitizen: Of course!
Me: the strings vibrations
You: Well...how about you stop that?
Me: Impossible
You:Have you seen Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy?
Me: Kinda
You: Towel.
Me: ooooooh O.O

All of your posts push me in the right direction.