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Author Topic: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet  (Read 946 times)

Offline Big Swifty

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2018, 09:40:30 AM »
I think syber's idea is good, string the guitar back up before applying any glue.

I would add: then test the piezo to make sure u are getting correct output etc.

If all ok, apply small drop of glue to hold it in place.

If not, then.... Further troubleshooting etc

B.S.
94 Fly Deluxe
2010 DF 524
The system can't get you in your dreams.

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2018, 10:06:57 AM »
apologies for being unclear, you're not dense.  Much is lost in text.  I will try to make some images that should clear things up- I'd love to help you. 

Right now I can't do that, but I will soon if you want.  If you can post 1-2 pictures that will help too.

To explain a little in the meantime, the main difference here is that I don't think you had good surface to surface contact on the bottom of the dogbone to the top of the piezo- not enough pressure on the piezo.

That glue can cure instantly on contact so it's very possible that it bonded before the dogbone was fully flush. 

If you find the time, I'd be glad to have some further instructions for re-glueing that little ****.

Guys, I got it out.
I first did some testing with heating a small piece of guitar string and with needles, but they cool down too quickly and I was sceptical about attaching a needle with wire to my soldering iron to keep it heated. After some further tests with other glued parts, I took the biggest tip for my Ersa Iron and set it to 400°C (752°F or 673K) and held it on the dogbone for 6 seconds (had a countdown set). Then I gave it 2-3 hits on the long side (facing the neck) with a piece of wood and a small hammer. I grabbed the odd shape with some splinter tweezers from my dads old surgical sets. That was it.
I put a big silicon matt on top of the guitar to protect against doofus contact with the hot iron. (It can't take more than 250°C, but it was better than nothing.)

The saddle itself stayed rather cold. I'll clean up and give it a try to test the piezo.
Hope it still works. I'm optimistic.

EDIT: There was some glue still left on the dogbone so I cleaned the bottom with a fresh razorblade, worked like a charm(had it in my parrot vise). That didn't work so well for the sides, so I used a 12000 micromesh pad. Not perfect, but looks better. I slightly polished the top with the balls as well, since it looked pretty beaten under my cheap stamp loup (x40).
Of course, there is still a small glue surface on top of the piezo pad...as i write this, there is some superglue drying between a hex shaped pencil and a small piece I cut from a razorblade to build a tiny scraper. I've got to be careful.

EDIT2:
I removed the rest of the glue with my tiny piece of razorblade on a pencil. One of my better ideas.
I kept the guitar plugged in and set my small test amp up to max on the clean channel. I stopped my scratching on the piezo pad's surface when I could hear the scratching also on the one end that had superglue residual. I tapped all spots on the top of the pad, and I think i found the reason for the quiet sound.
It seems that part of the pad has a short with the dogbone inserted. I guess it is the spot where the cable connects to the pad. The corners on the bottom of the dogbone have also an angle. I first thought that way they won't get stuck. When i touch that spot, I hear quiet version of bad shiedling, like when you touch the end of the guitar cable jack. One side of the pad(close to the short area) is also a little quieter than the other.
What's left of my grey matter tells me to find some coating I can apply on that tiny area where I get the jack-touch-noise, to prevent that from happening. Question is what do I use?
Like a sort of isolation paint...any ideas?
I get the same noise now when I put the dogbone in and when I press on it on that side.
I'll add some picture, but it's hard to make good pictures at that short distance.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 02:49:58 AM by That_is_a_Knoife »

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2018, 07:47:57 AM »
Here you can find some pictures of the bridge and the dogbone insert:
https://tinyurl.com/ParkerFlyDogboneRepair



On the upper corner of the saddle cavity is the spot I need to isolate. Maybe clear nail polish?


Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline billy

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2018, 04:35:35 PM »
sorry for the delay- I unplugged for a few days since we had a holiday weekend.

Glad you got the dogbone back out.

One quick thing to check is to push on the dogbone with your finger and see if the buzzing goes away.  If you look back at my earlier post, piezos need pressure.  Your first attempt may have suspended the piezo too far above, and/or not flat enough if that makes sense.

I'm not sure the string pressure is enough when adding glue, and it's also possible that the dogbone can be tilted a little, which would also be a problem.  (Otherwise, it's a good idea.)

What I suspect is that you have a high spot between the bottom of the dogbone and the top of the piezo, maybe some leftover glue? 

It's also possible you have a low spot and/or a short like you mention.  In that case, I think you could try to repair that with some nail polish or paint before gluing, but I have no direct experience.

Again, the goal is to keep the surfaces as flat to each other as possible, with no shorting.

Let me know if you still need a picture.



Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2018, 09:09:51 PM »
I'm glad that I waited with my nail polish tryout. The pictures above were all taken before I removed most of the glue. I'll try at the one suspected short first and then put the string back on.
If it is still very quiet, I'll try to resurface the piezo, probably with a very thin coating of the nail polish.
When i need it, I'll build tiny sanding sticks to smooth it out.

But first I have to reinforce the String. With the Locking Tuner and taking it out 3-4 times, the contact point on the string at the tuner took some damage. It cracked like the outer winding is broken, so I'll add a bit of solder like some do with their ends for Kahler Vibratos.

If you're willing, go ahead and add a picture. Every bit helps.

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2018, 06:13:44 AM »
Little update...

I started to sand the surface of the piezo pad with my "sanding sticks". I used punch pliers (correct term?)
to cut out small sanding confetti. I attached them on cut off toothpicks.
Sanded with 400, 600, 1200 grit (EU grit) but I'm still not happy with the surface.
I'm now experimenting to do the same with micro mesh pads. With a bit of the foam present, I think it can better adapt to the surface.

I've added 3 new pics to the album:
https://tinyurl.com/ParkerFlyDogboneRepair


Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline Big Swifty

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2018, 07:18:22 AM »
Hmmm..

Looks to me that you might be able to get a a very thin Xacto blade or something similar and carefully try picking/scraping at some of the looser bits, see if they'll lift/chip off.

Carefully, with a magnifying glass..

B.S.
94 Fly Deluxe
2010 DF 524
The system can't get you in your dreams.

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline That_is_a_Knoife

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2018, 12:34:03 PM »
Thing is you can't really get in there with a blade because there isn't enough space.
I cut a piece from a razor blade and glued it to a pencil to scrape in there. And I already removed a lot. I'm not sure what is there left there is glue. It think it's pieces of the top layer of the piezo pad.
The bit in the lower corner in the end of the piezo pad. So it wasn't exactly center when they placed it in the saddle. I don't want to scratch too much or the whole surface is gone.

Maybe I'll try again with a different blade. I'm using a x40 stamp loupe.
Did some testing with nail polish and some kind of nail polish top coat that is added to prevent flaking of the nail polish. I'll probably go for that top coat if I apply a coating.

Thx for the reply. Those keep me going.
I wish I had a microscope. x80 or x100 would be helpful.

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline billy

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2018, 02:55:38 PM »
The sanding stick is a great idea.  I wouldn't sand too much of the pad, just the high spots with glue to make a flat surface on top. 

You're looking for relatively even pressure on the pad from the bottom of the dogbone, clean flat surfaces will help you do that.  I see you cleaned up the bottom of the dogbone too, very nice.

Did you try to add pressure yet? If not, place the dogbone, string it up and push on it with your finger to see if the buzz goes away and let us know.


Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet

Offline Big Swifty

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Re: refined Fly loose dogbone glued in =>very quiet
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2018, 06:47:00 PM »
Would taking the whole saddle off make any difference, ie could you then maybe get the piezo element off the bottom for easier access?
 B.S.
94 Fly Deluxe
2010 DF 524
The system can't get you in your dreams.