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Author Topic: Intelligent Design? Evolution?  (Read 53815 times)

Offline uburoibob

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Intelligent Design? Evolution?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2006, 04:15:39 PM »
quote:

Neil young has had a bad back for years..
John Rooker



I have a weak back. Discovered it a week back!

Hey John Rooker, Go downtown and check out Bernunzio's new guitar store. Best durned guitar store in forever. I suggested to John that he become a dealer for high-end Flys today. He is considering it seriously. I think it would fit his customer base. He opens officially on Friday when the jazz fest starts. It's on the corner of East Ave and Scio Street. Or there abouts - in the new Sagamore building.

My apologies to the non-Rochester people out there, but a new guitar store in town is big news. Especially a great one with lots of vintage jazz guitars...

Bob

2000 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail  *  1999 Parker Fly Deluxe w/DiBurro Roland Mod Metallic Red  * 1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue (thanks, Darren!) •  Now on a signature reduction program! Just the Flies, maam. *  www.rtmadvertising.com
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

Intelligent Design? Evolution?

Offline 123crest

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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2006, 05:12:02 PM »
The first new Parker Campaign ad is out now in this month's vintage guitar magazine--check it out.
 

Intelligent Design? Evolution?

Offline JSanta

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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2006, 05:14:04 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by uburoibob

quote:

Neil young has had a bad back for years..
John Rooker



I have a weak back. Discovered it a week back!

Hey John Rooker, Go downtown and check out Bernunzio's new guitar store. Best durned guitar store in forever. I suggested to John that he become a dealer for high-end Flys today. He is considering it seriously. I think it would fit his customer base. He opens officially on Friday when the jazz fest starts. It's on the corner of East Ave and Scio Street. Or there abouts - in the new Sagamore building.

My apologies to the non-Rochester people out there, but a new guitar store in town is big news. Especially a great one with lots of vintage jazz guitars...

Bob

2000 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail  *  1999 Parker Fly Deluxe w/DiBurro Roland Mod Metallic Red  * 1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue (thanks, Darren!) •  Now on a signature reduction program! Just the Flies, maam. *  www.rtmadvertising.com




I know where I'll be headed when I move back!


/jim

"Do not speak.  Unless it improves on silence."
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Intelligent Design? Evolution?

jwrooker

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Intelligent Design? Evolution?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2006, 05:22:31 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by uburoibob


He opens officially on Friday when the jazz fest starts. It's on the corner of East Ave and Scio Street. Or there abouts - in the new Sagamore building.




Downtown Rochester without an armed escort?  Surely you jest..  [:D]

Hey, I've been out ridin' every morning and I ain't seen no yaller sit down bike out there...  

John Rooker
Rochester, NY
--------------
Gibson ES335 Light Burst
Gibson SG Standard Natural Burst
Gibson ES135 Vintage Sundburst
Carvin AE185 (coming)
Alvarez acoustic
Vox AD15VT, AD50VT & UltraSound AG50DS3
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 05:27:35 PM by jwrooker »

Intelligent Design? Evolution?

Offline rt0412

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Intelligent Design? Evolution?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2006, 05:39:22 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by bno

Evolution (n) A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. Maybe we can adopt this definition and get rid of the mystical aspects of the "BUZZ" words.

So, how do we define "intelligent design"? Also, when the process of change is gradual, is it achieved by trial and error and not by "intelligent design"? Maybe we should be using the word "revolutionary" as applied to the Fly guitars?

But it's really a difficult situation for Parker, because the LATER P-series of guitars seems to be a "step back to the future". Hardly "revolutionary" or "evolutionary". Parker is actually going retro.


The evolutionary contributions are probably going to be more subtle than the fretboard and a complicated manufacturing process. Ken proved that a guitar doesn't have to weigh a ton to get tone. We've known that for centuries. Take a classical hollow body guitar. It's lightweight. [;)] Seriously, I don't think people got into solid body guitars because it has "better" tone... it's because they're easier to mass produced.

The use of tone wood, carbon fiber fabric and epoxy to reinforce a lightweight body design and create a resonant structure is probably the biggest innovation.  In that sense, the Fly is evolutionary as it has made an incremental contribution to the concept of what a solid body electric guitar can be. I do think in 20 years lightweight guitars will be fairly common place and spread across a number of manufacturer designs.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Gibson make a 5 pound Les Paul with some combination of tone wood and composite materials. I think you're right... Have you tried a Jay Turser Strat copy? It's so light and resonant. With the right  set of pickups, it would probably be a killer. The workmanship though is a bit on the horrible side (cheap). Recently, Yamaha came up with the model RGX-A2 with a fancy buzz word to describe it - Alternative Internal Resonance (AIR) - another lightweight guitar.


 

Intelligent Design? Evolution?

Offline Lwinn171

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« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2006, 10:00:14 PM »
I will be the first to admit that the Fly is perfect for ME. Not necessarily for everyone. It fits my style very well, but it's fair to say that won't be the case for some folks. There's nothing "wrong" with traditional designs, which have stood the test of time. But I'm the kind of guy that wants something unique, and I deserve a guitar which plays well (sounds good, stays in tune) as I've been playing 26 + years now. (When you've dealt with cheapo gear for that long you feel it's worth it to get some quality stuff). For me, that path led straight to the Fly. Of course you're hearing the Parker Choir, you're in the Parker Church, right?

Lawrence Winn
"42.7 percent of all statistics are made-up on the spot."
2001 Fly Classic, Green
Larivee Parlour Guitar
Several inferior others
Mesa Boogie MK IV
Marshall 2-12 cab
Fender acoustasonic 30

Lawrence Winn
2001 Classic, 98 Deluxe
various amps, various toys

Intelligent Design? Evolution?

Offline Bill

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Intelligent Design? Evolution?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2006, 10:43:21 PM »
Agreed JW. I have avoided this thread for awhile because its irrelevant and beaten to death. So of course I'll beat some more.

 I did want to clear up a common misconception by some. This misconception calls to mind an old latin proverb (probably stolin from Greek)  that goes something like,

"Pleased at understanding, we often mistakenly assume we have ascended".[:0]

Evolution has nothing to do with our subjective interpretation of "progress".  It does not mean progressing to a more complex being, or ascending to a better state, or obtaining a more advanced order.

Evolution simply presumes an adaptation more suitable to an organism's reproductive survival.

There are plenty of cases where evolution has resulted in a regression of complexity. We now know, for example,  that some of our simpler modern day bacteria are the descendents of much more complicated organisms that would have been considered more "advanced" or more "elegant" than their modern day descendents. Those genetic lines survived only because some of them became (or stayed) less complex (less "refined") , and that adaptaion somehow was serendipitously (or spiritually)  prejudicial to their replication and survival.


Bottom line: Evolution moves back and forth in all directions. More complex, less complex; more specialized, less specialized, etc. Evolution is not prejudiced toward (or away) from "higher order". Adaptations occur in all directions. Environment determines which, if any, adaptations are "successful" (more favorable toward reproduction). Eventually organisms with that adaptaion become the norm, and the species is said to have evolved to that new standard.

In terms of numbers, one could argue the Parker Guitar has "evolved" from a few handmade one piece "Parker Fly Guitars" , to the mass produced, multiple pieced  varieties of Nite Flys and P Series guitars. Only the market place--not our admiration-- will decide which is better suited to survive.


This is not meant to deflate JP's ad campaign balloon. Just food for thought.[:)]

On that note, US music has wisly thrown a large variety of seeds out to the newly plowed field. Some varieties will flourish under current conditions. Others will fail (but may later flourish under differnt conditions if they can somehow go dormant or just survive long enough ). Anyway, now US music has done the hard work of developement. They can just fertilize and water a bit (advertize) and then sit back and see which varieties are capable of reseeding best. [;)]

Hopefully , some of the hierloom varieties -even if slower to reseed--will still be worth propagating for Parker, just as they are for Gibson and others.[?]. The heirloom varities, afterall, become the measure of evolution. [?][|)][|)][|)]

Custom '03 Hardtail Artist ; Fly Deluxe 2000; Gibson ES137; 1974 K.Yari DY85; Waterproof SchecterDisposable; Martin Backpacker/paddle combo;LarriveeParlor
A few Flys in my soup

Intelligent Design? Evolution?

Offline rt0412

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Intelligent Design? Evolution?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2006, 12:03:38 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by Bill

I did want to clear up a common misconception by some. This misconception calls to mind an old latin proverb (probably stolin from Greek)  that goes something like,

"Pleased at understanding, we often mistakenly assume we have ascended".[:0]

Evolution has nothing to do with our subjective interpretation of "progress".  It does not mean progressing to a more complex being, or ascending to a better state, or obtaining a more advanced order.

Evolution simply presumes an adaptation more suitable to an organism's reproductive survival.

There are plenty of cases where evolution has resulted in a regression of complexity. We now know, for example,  that some of our simpler modern day bacteria are the descendents of much more complicated organisms that would have been considered more "advanced" or more "elegant" than their modern day descendents. Those genetic lines survived only because some of them became (or stayed) less complex (less "refined") , and that adaptaion somehow was serendipitously (or spiritually)  prejudicial to their replication and survival.

Bottom line: Evolution moves back and forth in all directions. More complex, less complex; more specialized, less specialized, etc. Evolution is not prejudiced toward (or away) from "higher order". Adaptations occur in all directions. Environment determines which, if any, adaptations are "successful" (more favorable toward reproduction). Eventually organisms with that adaptaion become the norm, and the species is said to have evolved to that new standard.

In terms of numbers, one could argue the Parker Guitar has "evolved" from a few handmade one piece "Parker Fly Guitars" , to the mass produced, multiple pieced  varieties of Nite Flys and P Series guitars. Only the market place--not our admiration-- will decide which is better suited to survive.

This is not meant to deflate JP's ad campaign balloon. Just food for thought.[:)] If we adapt the concept of "evolution" as you have presented above, then you're not really deflating JP's ad campaign balloon. In fact, you have described exactly the basic strategy that Parker needs to survive... and that's exactly what they have done with the addition of the NiteFly and P models. All they have to do now is to come up with some creative way of presenting this "evolutionary process of moving back and forth" to the public... which I think, is not going to be an easy task.

On that note, US music has wisly thrown a large variety of seeds out to the newly plowed field. Some varieties will flourish under current conditions. Others will fail (but may later flourish under differnt conditions if they can somehow go dormant or just survive long enough ). Anyway, now US music has done the hard work of developement. They can just fertilize and water a bit (advertize) and then sit back and see which varieties are capable of reseeding best. [;)]

Hopefully , some of the hierloom varieties -even if slower to reseed--will still be worth propagating for Parker, just as they are for Gibson and others.[?]. The heirloom varities, afterall, become the measure of evolution. [?][|)][|)][|)]

« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 12:06:27 AM by rt0412 »
 

Intelligent Design? Evolution?

Offline trap

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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2006, 06:19:24 AM »
bill, sounds like the parable of the seeds!
 

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Offline uburoibob

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Intelligent Design? Evolution?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2006, 07:14:44 AM »
In my humble opinion, the whole idea of evolution vs intelligent design, as it applies to this advertising campaign, is not the strongest approach. For starters, it's not a direct tie-in to the visual. Nor is it going to really be a hot button issue that generates the kind of buzz that Parker is hoping for. It is too complex... trying to place a Parker guitar in a historical perspective is a stong enough image (as I have hopefully demonstrated - drawing more positive buzz with my Parkers in the hands of pivotal historical artists campaign that never ran than this idea, using the same sampling base). Trying to mold the ID vs Evo debate around it only serves to dilute the message, rather than enhance it. And ultimately, while any buzz can easily be reshaped with a few administrative explanations here, taking it to the public only serves to let people who see this debate as frivolous at best go past the ad with an eyeroll. Those in favor of ID will think that it's another hit, trying to minimize their belief. And those in favor of Evo will see it as another sensationalist push to shove a belief down their throats. Ultimately, both sides will turn the page without a benefit... and almost certainly without buzz. A negative/negative situation.

Sorry for being down on this, but I just think it's kind of weak.

Go the artists route (you have my blessing) and start a forum for the public to debate which of their favorite guitarists in history would have used Parker (it happened here exactly as it should). And of course it would come down to a discussion of which current artists should be using Parker... A positive/positive outcome!

I'd love to work with you on it, but if not, go for it. It's a stronger approach and it will hit a demographic you need - read the rich/pro thread...

Bob

2000 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail  *  1999 Parker Fly Deluxe w/DiBurro Roland Mod Metallic Red  * 1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue (thanks, Darren!) •  Now on a signature reduction program! Just the Flies, maam. *  www.rtmadvertising.com
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 07:25:17 AM by uburoibob »
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

Intelligent Design? Evolution?

Offline JPage

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Intelligent Design? Evolution?
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2006, 09:49:35 AM »
 

Intelligent Design? Evolution?

Offline uburoibob

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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2006, 12:46:43 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by JPage

http://www.parkerguitars.com/crossroads




OK. That's headed in a direction that pulls the ID part out of it. The preview of the ad that I saw had it in there, I think.

I think the question of the guitar's proper evolution, as this web page is insinuating, is better than trying to introduce ID into the equation. I think that the ID aspect is confusing, as it would take an intelligent designer to push the evolution of the guitar. A guitar is not capable of evolving on its own. Still, it's a little convoluted as a campaign, but better than keeping ID as a part of the whole thing. The best advice... keep it simple... reward em for reading (intellectual or emotional reward is plenty).

Bob

2000 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail  *  1999 Parker Fly Deluxe w/DiBurro Roland Mod Metallic Red  * 1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue (thanks, Darren!) •  Now on a signature reduction program! Just the Flies, maam. *  www.rtmadvertising.com
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 12:47:45 PM by uburoibob »
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

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Offline David Tomkins

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« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2006, 02:59:32 AM »
he's hit the nail on the head - evolution is controlled by the changing environment, not the talents of the organism per se.  many creatures evolved wonderfully and then found themselves in an ice age.  whoops.  to call the Fly evolution, we have to look at the 'guitar environment/market' and decide if the Fly has a better chance of survival than what came before it.  If not, it's not evolution. it's devolution (if that is a word).  The SyntheAxe portable keyboardyguitartypething was touted as the keybard evolving but it didn't survive.  mutation might have been a better term.
2005 Green Quilted Maple Custom Mojo signed by Steve Vai, 2006 Parker Fly T-Shirt, 2006 Parker Fly Baseball Cap.  A triple-whammy of Parker goodness!!

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Offline 908ssp

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« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2006, 08:20:49 AM »
I have kept out of this because honestly I think it is a bit silly.

But Bob brings up things I agree with it is too complicated a question to have any bearing in a guitar ad. It is like asking "salt or pepper?" Who cares? What's the point? Why do I want to think about this? Sounds like pseudo intellectual gibberish.

Those that do think about or care about the bigger question of ID or Evo? Might very well be offended by the trivialization of what to them is a profound issue and one they are being attacked on in other venues. At a time when many people feel under attack for their beliefs I find it somewhat troubling that we can't have a bit more compassion for their feelings. I don't have to share those beliefs to allow them their beliefs without being trivialized.

I think in context of Guitar players it makes much more sense to ask would those players who sought out new instruments 30 years ago have played a Parker? Guitar players are traditionalist what shaped that tradition and how do you break them out of that tradition?

By the way DT you have good point about the effects of change we describe as evolution. Only time will tell if evolution (Parker) was successful or not.

Alex

Alex

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Offline Musicman1

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« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2006, 08:33:35 PM »
I think if Leo Fender's original design was a Parker gtr then that would have been the thing to have.  I could see Les Paul designing a Parker gtr.  I think it was the music that made the solid body electric gtr what it is.  If the Beatles had Parkers, everyone would have had a Parker. I think most designers are trying to avoid copying whats already been done a million times as opposed to evolving.  I think the Parker clearly has roots in traditional design but simply takes new non-wood materials to a new level.  Is this evolution?? Maybe but really it does make for a great product. Let the designers do what they do best.  As gtr players its up to us to evolve musically.  

Musicman1

2005 Parker P44
2002 EB MM Axis Sport
1984 Custom made boutique Strat
1977 Guild D40 NT
1976 Gibson 335 Custom
Wide variety of amps and effects

« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 08:40:47 PM by Musicman1 »
Musicman1's current arsenal includes:
2007 EB MM JP6, Mystic Dream, piezo, matching headstock, dot inlays
2005 Parker P44, trans red
2002 EB MM Axis Sport  trans gold, rosewood fingerboard, hum/hum, vintage trem, matching headstock
1984 Custom made boutique Strat
1977 Guild D40 NT
1976 Gibson 335 Custom in sunburst
A variety of "tube free", absolutely non-boutique and completely replaceable amps and effects