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Author Topic: Chord families and Substitutions  (Read 16871 times)

Offline simonlock

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Chord families and Substitutions
« on: February 28, 2007, 08:41:42 AM »
Ok so this is basically how I understand jazz chord use. They break it down to chord families(basically dependant on the type of 3rd and 7th it has) of:

M7
7
m7
m7b5
dim7
ALTdom

And within these you can throw extensions on them to outline certain colors you want to hear.

M7= M9,b9,#9,11,13,#11,b13
7= b9,#9,11,#11,b13,13
m7=m9,11,#11,b13,13
m7b5=not too sure

Bob? HELP!!!!! [:)]

Simon
Vancouver,BC

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Chord families and Substitutions

Offline simonlock

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2007, 09:01:40 AM »
Also I would like to use mostly 4 note chords or less and I'm trying to design my system rather than learn a bazillion chord shapes.

Say I've got one of the inversions of a 7chord and I want to tweak it. There are a Root, 3, 5, 7 with the 3rd and 7th really outlinging the family I'm in. SSoooo... this is what I see...if i want to tweak I use the strings that the root and 5th sit on to throw in extensions and accidentals.
The string with the Root would get M7(if very unlikely),b9,9,#9 and the 5th would get b5(#11),#5,b13 and 13. That's about it. Am I close???

Simon
Vancouver,BC

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Chord families and Substitutions

Offline rusty

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2007, 10:04:34 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

Also I would like to use mostly 4 note chords or less and I'm trying to design my system rather than learn a bazillion chord shapes.




4-note chords...check out this system:
http://www.musiccentre.co.uk/acatalog/eBooks/free-guitar-chords/Chord_Method.pdf

very logical.  I've been working with it since November, and it's finally starting to come together.

Russ
[;)] proud owner of a '05 Mojo SC, natural mahogany

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline loumt123

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 05:34:54 PM »
Bob could help you with this one more then i could.

I've been taught to categorize very generally. Just major, minor and dominant. Once you can seperate chords into those categories you can then worry about how they fit against other chords. To my knowledge, the extensions and alteration do not change the type of chord, just how it ideally should and shouldn't be used.

Major chords would include: Major, 6, Maj7, Sus4, add9, Maj9, 6/9, Maj11, etc.
Minor chords would include: minor, m6, m7, m9, m11, m7b5, dim7 ( I believe; not 100 percent sure), m(maj7), etc
Dominant chords would include 7, 9, 11, 7b9, 7#9, 7b5, 9b5, 9#5, 11+ (augmented and sharp 5 are the same thing), 11b9#5, etc.


hope i helped you some!
 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline uburoibob

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    • Bob Martin 11:11
Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2007, 06:05:41 PM »
Lou,

You are actually right on the money, and sort of saying what Simon is saying. The way I would start would be to start with chords that have their root on the 6th string. Going across the fingerboard, find the third, fifth, dom and maj 7, and octave. From there, consider where to move to flat the 5, add the 9 and then flat it, sharp the 5, etc. THEN figure out which notes you can leave out of the chord and still get the "flavor" you are looking for. Rather than remembering a bazillon shapes, just remember 1 note and the way 4 notes relate to it. Then think about what happens when you move those 4 notes up or down a half or whole step. You'll see the familiar shapes start toe emerge.

So, Simon, here's the deal: Start with a G on the sixth string, and play a major scale up the neck. Now add the third  on the A string, and play the G major scale up the A string while you are doing it on the low E string. See the way the relationship of the third changes to the tonic? Some will be major, some will be minor. Now add the fifth on the D string. From here, you will see how the chords are formed, and how harmonizing the scale gives you moving tones you can use to get from one chord to another. In no time, you'll be walking bass lines and having a chord for every note of the walk.

Hope this helps.
Bob

1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail  â€¢ 1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue (thanks, Darren!) •  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod • Now on a signature reduction program! Just the Flies, maam. •  www.rtmadvertising.com
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Chord families and Substitutions

Offline simonlock

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2007, 06:23:30 PM »
Bob I can harmonize scales no problem. Including MM and Harm Minor. I geuss it's all just how much time is spent with this stuff. I've typically barely played chords and almost always played single notes. If I need a chord I just play all the tones I want to hear in that beat. I have now commited myself to learn the typical open jazz chords off the 6th and 5th strings including inversions as well as the 4 note clusters on string sets 3456  2345 and 1234. The reason I haven't already reasoned it all out is that to me there fails to be a good chord system for guitar. Chord dictionaries are overwhelming and basically useless. I think the key is learning the basic 7th chords and inversions and then learn to alter them for the chords you need rather than memorizing 6 chords for each type. So yeah Bob, it's going to require that I can see the root and then fill in all the intervals I need after that. Time. I will master it.

Simon
Vancouver,BC

'00 Parker Fly Supreme-Butterscotch
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Chord families and Substitutions

Offline uburoibob

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    • Bob Martin 11:11
Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2007, 09:29:52 PM »
I know you will master it Simon. You asked, and I told you what I did to be able to make chords. Working through Ted Greene's books "Chord Chemistry" and "Modern Chord Progressions" will help, but man are they challenging. They are best taken once you can see the harmony moving through the chords and plot the relationships. There are also some impossible fingerings. But those are the bibles.

Bob

1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail  â€¢ 1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue (thanks, Darren!) •  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod • Now on a signature reduction program! Just the Flies, maam. •  www.rtmadvertising.com
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline loumt123

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2007, 03:38:19 PM »
the impossible fingerings are always the ones that sound the best too [:(]
 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline prjacobs

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2007, 11:48:37 PM »
I've studied both classical and jazz with many teachers, and the best and most advanced, yet simple system of harmony and chord substitution was taught to me by the late Sanford Gold, an amazing jazz piano teacher who lived in New York.  He self-published his book, and if you can find it, it may change your life.  I will never look at, hear, write, or play music the same because of him.
Now that the tribute is over, let me see if I can summarize... some of it:)

Basically only 2 things happen in music.  You're either in a key or on a dominant chord transitioning into a new key.  People talk of II, V, I, etc., but thinking of dominants as a V chord is outdated.  I think of everything as how it relates to the dominant only.  The 2 most common ways of approaching the dominant are.... in Sanford's terms.  1. The minor 7th suspension - a 5th above the dominant.  In the key of C, that would be dm7, G. Of course, going traditionally to C - your ii,V, I in traditional terms, and... 2. The minor 6th suspension, a whole step below the dominant.  fm6, G,(then to C).  People say m7Flat5, but m6th is simpler for me.  Without going totally nuts, let me mention a few basic facts about the dominant 7th chord.  First of all, in modern music the 5th is frequently lowered or raised.  The 9th, 11th, and 13th appear frequently and are also raised or lowered producing tonalities that were unheard of in more traditional music.  If we flat the 5th of a G7, we get G,B, D flat and F.  These notes are also the same in the D flat dominant 7th.  So in a sense, when you play a G7 you're in 2 keys, C and G Flat.  There's your basic flat 5 substitution.  If you play dominant 7th chords around the cycle of 5ths and substitute the flatted 5th dominant for ever other chord, you'll get a chromatic series of chords.  The diminished relationship of the 3rd, 5th and flatted 7th, and by extension, the flat 9 give you a diminished 7th chord, which puts you in 4 keys, depending on which note you decide is the root.  So think G7, B flat7, D flat7 and E7 as substitutes for each other.  This makes you think in 4 keys at once. When I practiced all of this I would study 2 keys a day, a flatted 5th apart.  Day one C, G flat, day 2 G, D flat, day 3 D and A flat,etc. covering 12 keys in 6 days. (And on the 7th day, you rest... and maybe have your lesson:)
Lastly, for now.  if you take a dm7 chord and add the 9th and 11th extensions, you have dm7, FM7, am7, so you can play in any of those keys.
Sorry to go on, but Sanford's system is so far reaching and actually simple, when taken in stages.
Best,
Paul Jacobs
 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline loumt123

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2007, 05:28:57 AM »
It sounds a bit flustering reading it all at once...I'll keep an eye out[:)]
 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline prjacobs

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2007, 06:32:37 AM »
90% of chords in guitar books are useless, and basically non-functional in the real world.  If you're playing in a band, chances are that the bass player will play the root of any chord.  In any case the root doesn't define the dominant, minor, major, diminished, or augmented nature and is never missed.  Find a couple of inversions for M6,m6,M7,m7,+9, flat5, etc., that feel good under your fingers and get down with your bad selves.

 
 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline simonlock

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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2007, 08:40:10 AM »
It sounds lik a good system Paul, if i understand correctly. A bit short cut-ish for me though. I've tried to get everything to make sense by trying to sort out some general quick rules and it just leaves me more frustrated.

Simon
Vancouver,BC

'00 Parker Fly Supreme-Butterscotch
'06 Parker Nylon Fly(thanks Jamie!)
'99 Parker Fly Artist w/Ken Parker signature
'06 Parker Fly Mojo-T/Cherry
'06 Parker Fly Classic-Dusty Black
'99 Parker Fly Classic-Natural
'98 Parker FlY Classic-Trans Blue(coming soon)
 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline loumt123

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2007, 02:11:36 PM »
The ommition of the root is very touchy, for me at least. Sometimes it sounds better with, other times without...depends on the type of music and if the situation calls for it. Sometimes those big, beefy, difficultly voiced chords are my favorites [:D]
 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline prjacobs

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2007, 03:09:32 PM »
When I studied I did an exercise as follows...
Placing my finger on, let's say, middle C, without playing the note, I would say aloud:

C major, no sharps or flats.

1. The unaltered enharmonic intervals:
The tonic is C
The 2nd and 9th are D
The major 3rd and major 10th are E
The 4th and 11th are F
the perfect 5th is G
the 6th and 13th are A
The major 7th is B
The tonic octave is C

2. Altered Intervals
Flatted:
the minor 3rd is E flat, (the minor 10th) is E flat
the flatted 5th is.. G flat
the dominant 7th is B flat
the flatted 9th is D flat

Augmented of sharped intervals
the aug.5th is G#
the aug. 9th is D#
the aug. 11th is F#

Altered enharmonic intervals
the minor 3rd is E flat, the aug. 10th is D#
the flatted 5th is G flat, the aug. 11th is F#

This all comes from "A Modern Approach To Keyboard Harmony and Piano Techniques," By Sanford Gold.

In terms of playing roots on guitar, I agree, sometimes the root and a big beefy chord is what's best, but in a large ensemble, you might not hear it.  In writing for horns or playing keyboards, the root would most definitely be avoided.


 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline prjacobs

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2007, 03:11:38 PM »
Oops.... Above, in section 2. Altered enharmonic intervals it should be the minor 3rh is E flat, the augmented 9th... is D#