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Author Topic: Chord families and Substitutions  (Read 16864 times)

Offline PatricBrown

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2010, 03:30:28 PM »
Billy, it just blew my mind when I finally learned how it was played(Kashmir is in DADGAD,,that was in Guitar Player Mag a few years ago), and it was after I had gone to this traveling Led Zeppelin show at the Heymann Center in Lafayette where they played with the Acadiana Symphony Orchestra, with Randy Jackson from Zebra singing, and after the break, he picked up a 12 string acoustic, and proceeded to do Rain Song in a manner that resembled nothing I had ever seen, and I realized then he was in another tuning entirely,,not even DADGAD, which I can tell right off, and the next day I went home and hit the net and searched it out and learned it. You can actually_sort_of pull it off in normal, so I know what you mean there,,but you need the DGCGCD tuning to do it. For a mnemonic I call the tuning Duh Gook Gook Duh. I think Stairway was in a regular tuning. With Rain Song, the trick is to have that b string tuned to a c note. There had been some argument about that until a fella from Georgia who had been one of Page's gutiar techs chimed in and set the record straight.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/l/led_zeppelin/the_rain_song_tab.htm

There are some music stores that forbid the playing of Stairway,,,wore out their welcome,,but that's an old story. [:)]

http://www.myspace.com/patrickronaldbrown

2000 Fly Stealth Gray Hard Tail, THD Univalvew/one12 Avatar Bottom(Eminence Private Jack), Traynor YCV20WR, Ableton Suite 8, various & assorted other acoustic & electric, Home Studio

It is better to know than to believe
http://www.myspace.com/patrickronaldbrown

2000 Fly Stealth Gray Hard Tail, 2000 Reverend Slingshot, THD Univalvew/one12 Avatar Bottom(Eminence Private Jack), Traynor YCV20WR, Ableton Suite 8, various & assorted other acoustic & electric, Home Studio

It is better to know than to believe.

Live is like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're going to get.

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline billy

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2010, 09:26:29 AM »
yep, been there and back, and thus the additional desire for more than one guitar.  And even if you could get the notes, it never did sound right without the same tunings.

Before realizing the alternate tunings, I just remember thinking page must have some crazy long fingers and flexibility...[:p]

ps I've been a fan of randy jackson for a long time, even the crazy falsetto

Billy

*play it like you mean  it...*
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline prjacobs

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2010, 08:42:31 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by PatricBrown

Not to oversimplify, but, chords can generally be regarded as Major,(M7s, add 9's, 2 for 3, sus4, et al),,,,,, minor(simple, minor 7th, or minor 7th b5, and more as you reach higher tensions),,,,, or Dominant, the last being a huge category,,and homebase for tritone substitutions, etc.,,,, which embraces diminshed, and all the 9ths and well as b9's, #9s, b5s, #5s, 7/6, 13's(which are 6ths an octave up, and may be seen to be flatted, if memory serves,,but it'd likely be called a #5,,.if it's a #6 in a minor 7 chord with a b3 you're just playing a dim 7,,though you're still in Dominant land.)

Since chords are built in 3rds, a 7th(any 7th) should be called a tetrad. That'd avoid some confusion.

MAIN POINT

#11 is always found in a MAJOR situation. It is a raised 4th and while a #4 and a b5 are enharmonically the same note,,,,a 4 is a 4 and a 5 is a 5, and shouldn't be confused. If you see a b5 you know it's a DOMINANT situation. To wit, a lydian scale is 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7,1,,if in C, you'd have an F#, the FOURTH, with, and followed by, a regular G note, the FIFTH.(this is a MAJOR situation),,, If you have a scale with a b5, in C, then you would have an F present as the FOURTH of the scale, then the b5,,,a Gb, as the FIFTH, and you know you are in a DOMINANT situation.
Don't mean to come off as pedantic, and I've forgotten alot of the jazz theory I once knew, and/or internalized it,,but it was the 4th/5th thing I wanted to comment on, and how, even though enharmonically the same note, really are not.  Many here, i'm sure, know easily more than I, but,,,

Our western, 12 tone system, gives us 7 note scales, which require that we have a proper 4th and a proper 5th in it. You see this come to the fore with 12 tones in (we're leaving western behind here and going east, but there are similarities) North Indian Classical music, though they can really mess with scales,,and a scale tone can have several more divisions,,,,we can get to them by bending to the proper feel, on a guitar. On a sitar you can bend a note up 6 scale degrees on one string pull,,,stopping where you please.(and the frets thereof make bass frets look miniscule) On a sarod,,you slide to it with the edge of your fingernail. But here the raised 4,,used in our Lydian, their Kalyan(Mode, Thaat), is sacrosanct, and would never be taken to be a b5th scale tone. Carnatic (Southern India) music pivots on this, too. In fact, the 5 is never flatted or sharped. But the normal and raised 4 is a definite and identifiable feature.

http://www.myspace.com/patrickronaldbrown

2000 Fly Stealth Gray Hard Tail, THD Univalvew/one12 Avatar Bottom(Eminence Private Jack), Traynor YCV20WR, Ableton Suite 8, various & assorted other acoustic & electric, Home Studio

It is better to know than to believe




Sanford's system of harmony also categorized chords are either major, minor, or dominant, but in my studies with him, we often ran into a #11 in a minor situation.  Simply, say... C7b9+11.... being the dominant in the key of f minor.  But... Maybe I'm misunderstanding your way of referencing the #11. The real point is, there are a variety of ways to organize one's thoughts harmonically, and they are all right onto themselves.  I think that whatever "system" one uses, it must provide wide ranging options, and be accessible on the fly.  And, it should be easy to understand.
By the way, I've tried to get in touch with Sanford's widow, and I think she might have passed away.
 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline PatricBrown

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2010, 05:41:53 PM »
No, not at all priacobs,,I'm open to learning/hearing any approach, I was only stating what they were teaching at Berklee in the 70's,, what was in their books,,and maybe I missed something. I'm not the authority. As long as we know a raised 11 is a sharp 4, it could be used in any situation. My concern was with making sure of thinking of 4ths and 5ths in their 'proper' context,,,but with artificial harmony, with scales not relegated to 12 tones, etc., all that could change.

PS Sorry I misspelled your name,,,the j looked like an i in the moment.

http://www.myspace.com/patrickronaldbrown

2000 Fly Stealth Gray Hard Tail, 2000 Reverend Slingshot, THD Univalvew/one12 Avatar Bottom(Eminence Private Jack), Traynor YCV20WR, Ableton Suite 8, various & assorted other acoustic & electric, Home Studio

It is better to know than to believe
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 09:24:51 PM by PatricBrown »
http://www.myspace.com/patrickronaldbrown

2000 Fly Stealth Gray Hard Tail, 2000 Reverend Slingshot, THD Univalvew/one12 Avatar Bottom(Eminence Private Jack), Traynor YCV20WR, Ableton Suite 8, various & assorted other acoustic & electric, Home Studio

It is better to know than to believe.

Live is like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're going to get.

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline prjacobs

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2010, 08:21:42 PM »
Ditto Patric,  What's great about the forum is the pooling of our knowledge. If you check out my earlier posts here, I describe a bit of how Sanford Gold taught me.  The thing about the piano that's great is when you have 2 hands that can play at the same time, you can do lots of cool polytonal things, such as play augmented arpeggios in diminished intervals, i.e. C and Eflat, C, G flat, C and A.... And conversely diminished arpeggios separated by M3rds, aug. 5ths, etc.  And as you work in 2 keys a day, 6 days a week, you get all of that knowledge into your fingers and your head.  I know I'm repeating myself, but I can't overemphasize how great a teacher and person Sanford Gold was.  I will NEVER look at or hear a piece of music the same way because of him.
 

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline PatricBrown

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2010, 09:28:14 PM »
Thank you for alerting me to him, pr. When I teach music(not much these days, but I have) I prefer to have a keyboard handy, because it's literally all right in front of you, and more, to my way of thinking, easily explained.I love polytonality,,,musical puns, double entendre, sort of.

PS your first long post is excellent(they all are), and many thanks for it. I like it simple. Real nice. [:)] LIke, who's got time to think in the heat of the moment?

http://www.myspace.com/patrickronaldbrown

2000 Fly Stealth Gray Hard Tail, 2000 Reverend Slingshot, THD Univalvew/one12 Avatar Bottom(Eminence Private Jack), Traynor YCV20WR, Ableton Suite 8, various & assorted other acoustic & electric, Home Studio

It is better to know than to believe
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 09:02:34 AM by PatricBrown »
http://www.myspace.com/patrickronaldbrown

2000 Fly Stealth Gray Hard Tail, 2000 Reverend Slingshot, THD Univalvew/one12 Avatar Bottom(Eminence Private Jack), Traynor YCV20WR, Ableton Suite 8, various & assorted other acoustic & electric, Home Studio

It is better to know than to believe.

Live is like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're going to get.

Chord families and Substitutions

Offline billy

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Chord families and Substitutions
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2010, 11:30:25 AM »
+1

*play it like you mean  it...*
Billy

[always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question.  e. e. cummings]