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Author Topic: Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres  (Read 13703 times)

Offline Bill

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2007, 06:51:27 AM »
I'm not sure I agree with the physiology here Simon,  but I like the overall concept a lot anyway.

Relaxing enough to keep unneeded muscle units from contracting is a key. Extraneous muscle groups are sometimes conflicting or distracting or can generally cause fatigueing of the groups you are really trying to use. At first we over engage a bunch of groups because of weakness of the ones we need(lack of practice to build strength) and then later because of anxiety. Exta epinenphrine induces the fight or flight responce. This keys up all muscle fibers a notch without us knowing it. We actually over contract for a given task as a result.

Its frustrating that when I'm by myself, relaxed and in the zone, I can play and sing what I think may be a pro level performance. My hands are loose and automatically fly all over the place.

As soon as I sence someone is watching, or if I'm recording, all of that instantly vanishes as I go back into the realm of self conscious.

I think if it helps to "visualize" things in a way that makes since to you in order to improve your chance of an "in the zone" performance, then that is a good thing, reagardless of the physiology. Pro atheletes use this tool a lot.

The important thing here is that you're actin on your myosin 'cause your ichin for some faaast twitchin. [:D]



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« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 06:56:34 AM by Bill »
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Gixxernutter

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2007, 07:37:43 AM »
quote:
As soon as I sence someone is watching, or if I'm recording, all of that instantly vanishes as I go back into the realm of self conscious.


That's where I find a pint or 2 of strong lager helps me slip back into the realm of self conscious [:D]

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2007, 08:58:09 AM »
quote:
Relaxing enough to keep unneeded muscle units from contracting is a key.


I have noticed this in my own life, in many ways.

quote:
Its frustrating that when I'm by myself, relaxed and in the zone, I can play and sing what I think may be a pro level performance. My hands are loose and automatically fly all over the place.

As soon as I sence someone is watching, or if I'm recording, all of that instantly vanishes as I go back into the realm of self conscious.


Hey, get out of my head! [;)]

I'm very much like that. Even more so since I never really get to actually play in front of real, live, breathing people. [:I]



Thinking some more about this topic, this morning I was thinking about a gardening accident I had about eight years ago. I was trimming some ground cover with some pruning shears and nearly cut off the tip of my left index finger - it got about 1/2 way thru when I realized I was cutting myself. Naturally, I was bummed because it meant I couldn't play guitar for a while. A few weeks later, it was all healed up, but there was a fairly large area that now felt quite numb compared to before. It took a long time to really learn how to compensate when playing guitar, probably a year or so. It stinks because the cut was almost exactly how my finger contacts the guitar strings.

Then about 2-1/2 years ago, I accidently hacked my left thumb with a very sharp mini hacksaw blade - went right thru the thumbnail, too. That took a few weeks to heal as well, and I just escaped stiches. So, you guessed it, my thumb is numb in that area, too. It didn't take as long to compensate, but it is exactly at the point where my thumb contacts the back of the neck. I guess I would attribute the numbness in both cases to nerve damage as a result of the injuries.

All that to say that I never really realized or thought about it that much until this topic came up just how much I rely on the feeling in my fingertips, and how besetting it can be when something happens to that. [B)]

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2007, 09:09:35 AM »
Paul you need to stay away from sharp objects!

When I'm in the zone(not recording video or audio or feeling like someone is watching/listening) I can imagine all the music and hands position inmy head. It's the best place to be and it kind of removes the conscience from them mess of incoming signals from your nerve endings reporting that you indeed made the finger touch the string. I see these inputs as useful for slower stuff but when you start moving then they are kind of slow. Imagine the event happens then the signal travels to the brain where a section has to interpret it then it is understood. There is a small delay but it's there. Kind of like trying to play to some latency sound generator. Sort of a different topic though.

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2007, 09:31:24 AM »
quote:
Paul you need to stay away from sharp objects!


Yeah, I am careful most of the time. When I hacked my thumb, I was just being stupid and not practicing good safety habits. [B)]
 

quote:
When I'm in the zone(not recording video or audio or feeling like someone is watching/listening) I can imagine all the music and hands position in my head.


I have been doing that from time to time when practicing in the mornings lately. It is kind of freeing. [8D]

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Lwinn171

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2007, 01:51:49 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

Lawrence, when I've been beating on ball joints of big ugly rusted trucks all day I can barely play for days and sometimes as much as a week later. My hands are so stiff that it literally requires the use of type1 fibers to overcome the stiffness. Sure it could be that they are just "turned on" but it could also be that with the damage set in the neural pathways may not be as sensitive.

Simon
Vancouver,BC


I hear you, man. When I'm in the sanding stage, using a random orbit sander for hours at a time, I get that "fist full of bee's" feeling, and can't play well for quite a while. Gloves help, and I need to get some of the one's designed for shock reduction (padded with gel packs or the like). Anyway, the feeling is like whacking a steel I-beam with a aluminum baseball bat...buzzzzzzzzzz.

Lawrence Winn
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2007, 07:37:50 PM »
I'm really glad that this topic has been of interest to you guys. When I first posted it nobody touched it for about 3 days. I thought my words had fell on deaf ears or just wasn't interesting enough to respond to. I'm glad you've put in your thoughts.

This is mainly an attempt to help others and also to further my own understanding. The whole concept is a very fine self awareness excercise and kind of borders on some sort of bhuddism. Since it's so different for each person in their perceptions of the same thing it's important that we hear what others are experiencing.

One of my big goals as a musician is to write a book on how to master the physical aspect of guitar performance. Jamie Andreas's book is the first I've seen make an attempt and I thought it did a very poor job of explaining anything. I've tried all the exercises from all the best books and none of them will work if you don't learn this stuff for yourself. Running scales day and night will only work if you ACCIDENTALLY figure this out.

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline uburoibob

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2007, 08:24:05 PM »
I had never really considered Type 1 or Type 2 muscles. But I would guess that it's the natural shift from Type 1 to Type 2 that happens by practicing the same scales over and over and over and gradually going from having to move your fingers to your fingers moving seemingly by themselves. It's probably the point where tactile memory takes over, addressing those Type 2s. Then, it's continuing to practice those scales, moving faster by fractional amounts. I would guess that's where the Type 1 to Type 2 shift happens in a musician. I would guess that's what's happened in me. It's kind of critical to practice and master at least the major and minor scales all up and down the neck, moving onto substitutions, etc. Eventually, the entire fretboard gets mapped to your Type 2 muscles and tactile memory.

For me, it's about 4 solid hours of practice a day. That comes at the expense of a lot of other things. Fortunately, I haven't worried about speed for the last 20 years or so. Instead, I've been focused on shifting notes in scales to create more interesting melody/linear harmony and investigation of the subtleties of rhythm. Speed just seems to be there if I need it.

Simon - just out of curiosity - do you have recordings from that perfect day or time? Just curious if the performance was as strong as the memory of the feeling. I know that some shows I do where I think I really nailed it are nowhere near as musically interesting as shows when I thought I was having a hard time. Not always, but more often than not.

Bob

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2007, 09:44:56 PM »
Bob I was 18. I was playing Steve Vai,Metallica, Joe Satriani and Yngwie type songs. Even then I improvised a lot but the most I knew about making music was the major/minor and pentatonic scales. I used some of what I knew from songs and mostly my ear to come up with things I wanted to hear.I could play fast but it wasn't terribly musical. Certainly not like the level of craftsmanship you've achieved Bob. I'm still miles from there. However it was crazy speed. I don't have any recordings as at the time I had nothing to record with and computers were still Ataris and such. It was basically such a dramatic change in skill level that I was immediately thrilled that i was finally getting "there". Wherever that was at the time for me.

When I hit record on anything be it a computer recording or video I lose about 30% of my ability and about 50% of my creativity. Nothing flows. I think what i need to do to record is loop record and then spend a lot of time going through the material. I figure if I play long enough I'll stop caring that someone or something is listening.

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2007, 09:59:32 PM »
Anyway guys I'm investigating the application of "fast-twitch" or Type2 fiber training to the hands and forearms of guitarists. Or any other musician for that matter. So far the most popular method for increasing the strength,speed and endurance of these fibers is through Plyometrics.

One excercise I've been trying out is holding all fingers in there natural RELAXED(most important) curve and starting with the index(or whichever you like) you bounce your finger off that fingers corresponding fret. Think of your finger as you jumping off the floor over and over without bending your knees when you land. In the air you'd be loose you'd come down and your calves would absorb your desent and SPROING! back up just like Tigger! It's that fast twitch that you want to get combined with absolutely nothing in between. Now this is meant as an excercise to train the muscle not as technique practice.

When you practice scales or chords or arps or whatever. It's the same idea but you 've got to start out very moderately so that you can get that feeling repeatedly and reinforce it. Now it's not as exaggerated but you go from no tension to quick little twitches that get your fingers moving. The added speed and the weight of your finger are all that are needed to hammer onto the fret sending the string into full vibration. The speed that type one muscle will bring it down will barely produce a note on it's own if at all. Beginners are often faced with this and in response PRESS HARDER!!! Pressing harder only brings in the type1 muscles you don't want interfering.

For me chords had always been the worst for tension. I think I'd have about 30lbs on my index finger and about 20lbs on every other finger for each and every chord. Even now it's very difficult to play chords without reverting back to this feeling. Remember I played an awful lot during the 20 years I cultivated my type1 habits.

Bob, how hard are you pressing your fingers down after the chord is struck? How about during a chord series? 6 string barre chords?

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Lwinn171

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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2007, 12:11:38 AM »
Simon, I agree. Chords really get me sometimes. When we did the "Twin Peaks" shows, there were tunes where I'd have to arpeggiate big bar chords, letting the notes ring, and making the changes between chords as quickly as possible. All in a very slow, dreamy torch song. That fatigued me very quickly, even though it was "easy" stuff. I'd just start cramping up. I can sit around and strum chords all day long, usually, but those slow tempo, very exposed chords were killers.

Lawrence Winn
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2007, 06:34:17 AM »
quote:
When we did the "Twin Peaks" shows, there were tunes where I'd have to arpeggiate big bar chords, letting the notes ring, and making the changes between chords as quickly as possible. All in a very slow, dreamy torch song. That fatigued me very quickly, even though it was "easy" stuff. I'd just start cramping up. I can sit around and strum chords all day long, usually, but those slow tempo, very exposed chords were killers.


I know what you mean. When I first started playing guitar, I did a lot of acoustic playing with barre chords. As a result, the muscle between my thumb and index finger has become highly developed and feels pretty hard to the touch when I flex that muscle. On my right hand, this muscle is virtually completely undeveloped. Even so, on those kind of tunes, my left hand will tend to cramp up sometimes, even when playing the electric guitar. [:(]

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2007, 08:24:28 AM »
Oh thank God I'm not the only one!! But, it's possible to press a lot less and achieve the same thing. I've found barres the hardest and it's mostly because some areas of our fingers don't contact the string as well and so we have learned to squish it into place. In a lot of cases if it's relaxed it'll bend into shape more easily. I've watched Martone play and he can control areas along his finger to control the notes along it.

I figure that playing it lightly and missing a few notes is better than cramping up and missing the whole solo that follows. Obviously the barres take a little more because there are six strings but I think most of us overshoot the requirement. Not many Jazz players hang out on barre chords and maybe that's why.

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2007, 08:54:02 AM »
quote:
Oh thank God I'm not the only one!! But, it's possible to press a lot less and achieve the same thing. I've found barres the hardest and it's mostly because some areas of our fingers don't contact the string as well and so we have learned to squish it into place. In a lot of cases if it's relaxed it'll bend into shape more easily.


On an electric, if your action is low enoguh, you can use a pretty light touch and not have buzzing. It's a lot harder on an acoustic guitar, though, you really have to press the strings down a lot harder. Thank goodness the Fly was invented! Acoustic guitar sounds without the trauma to the fingers and hand. [:0]

quote:
Not many Jazz players hang out on barre chords and maybe that's why.


Maybe. To me, barre chords sound kind of plain and boring. I've always liked using open strings with my chords to get some interesting sounding chords. Not many jazz players use open strings in their chords, but you can do some cool stuff using them. The jazz players I have known just try to play as efficiently as possible using the easiest chord shapes. And then I have known a few people that don't, they are doing things more like Allan Holdsworth would... [8D]

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline uburoibob

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« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2007, 09:04:50 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

Bob I was 18. I was playing Steve Vai,Metallica, Joe Satriani and Yngwie type songs. Even then I improvised a lot but the most I knew about making music was the major/minor and pentatonic scales. I used some of what I knew from songs and mostly my ear to come up with things I wanted to hear.I could play fast but it wasn't terribly musical. Certainly not like the level of craftsmanship you've achieved Bob. I'm still miles from there. However it was crazy speed. I don't have any recordings as at the time I had nothing to record with and computers were still Ataris and such. It was basically such a dramatic change in skill level that I was immediately thrilled that i was finally getting "there". Wherever that was at the time for me.

When I hit record on anything be it a computer recording or video I lose about 30% of my ability and about 50% of my creativity. Nothing flows. I think what i need to do to record is loop record and then spend a lot of time going through the material. I figure if I play long enough I'll stop caring that someone or something is listening.

Simon
Vancouver,BC



Hey Simon,

I wasn't trying to be critical at all. I was just making a personal point that for me, having that feeling doesn't always equate to playing well. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. In general, I lose about 30% - 50% when I hit record too. I realized that a long time ago, so for me, I always sound better when it's just me sitting there and playing, and I know that I've always gotta be on top of my game to get as much out as I can.

Probably like that for most people, so it's kind of humbling to know that all of the artists people love and want to emulate are 30 to 50 percent better than we ever hear!

Anyway, not sure there's science here. I think Paul hit it with tactile memory, and it's probably that memory that controls the Type 2 muscle fiber. So, the age old regimens of practice, practice, practice - with some sense of discipline - is a good one.

My advice (to everyone)... learn the major scale in every position on the guitar. Then link the positions, and play them. Learn it backwards and forwards. Learn it by playing every other note. Now every third note. Now 1, 3, 2, 4, 3, 5, 4, 6, etc. NOW learn it in double stops.

From there, anything is possible. Once your fingers know that inside and out, it's such an easy leap to the minors, diminished, augmented, chromatics, etc. It's just that it takes hours of rote playing. And rote playing can be done with minor mental attention. I watch TV while running scales as fast as I can and reading email and the Parker forum. There's seldom a time when I am typing here, that it is not being done by reaching over the top of one of my Parkers.

Anyway, that's the secret, from what I've discovered. Give it 4 hours a day - 3 1/2 running scales, and the last half having fun. If you want to have more fun, take it up to 5 hours a day.

Bob

1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 09:08:33 AM by uburoibob »
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