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Author Topic: Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres  (Read 14151 times)

Offline simonlock

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2007, 09:10:52 AM »
I didn't take it as critical Bob and you're right it probably wasn't half as good as I thought it was. But it was faster than I was used to.

This is a great discussion in that we now have two sides. Mine and the view that it's just practice. Also since everyone is different, approaches to regime are different. If I play over an hour the fatigue becomes so great that I start doing more damage than good. I can rarely play 3 hour sessions let alone 4hrs. What works better for me is an hour in the am and an hour in the pm.

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2007, 09:12:44 AM »
Bob you must tell us what you experience when you play chords.

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2007, 10:16:05 AM »
Man, if I had four hours a day to practice instead of one hour, the possibilities are scary! [:D]

I agree, a lot of it is just route practice until your fingers do what you want automatically.

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline blancacat

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2007, 11:56:07 AM »
Simon, after you started this thread, I went to check out your YouTube clips.  Geez, it seems to me that you are plenty fast as it is.  Just had to put that in here even tho it is out of sync with the rest of the conversation at this point.  Anyway, if that is about 1/3 of what you can do when the record button is off, then you are plenty fast indeed.  I can only approximate that kind of speed and when I do, it is for relatively short little bursts before I start making too many errors and get frustrated.  (I'm more the rhythm guy who aspires to play lead).

If I think of the "bouncing" exercise that you suggest as applying the firm finger (J. Andreas) with one finger repetively before moving to the next finger, is that what you have in mind to force the type IIs into play?  I see myself trying that out.  Actually, it seems that just bouncing the finger tip off the surface of the string would require more tactile agility than pressing the string down fully to the fret.  Never tried what you have suggested but I will.  Actually,  when doing scales, my instructor insisted I hold all the fingers down before moving onto the next string.  I only aspire to this.  (my fingers have never been completely independent of one another--e.g. a movement of my ring finger will cause a symapthetic rising of the pinkie etc....)  If this bouncing thing will help improve that, well then I'll be a happy camper.  Hey, maybe if I develop my type IIs, my fingers will become more indepedent of one another.
For the first three years or so of my playing, I, too played at least 3 hours daily, sometimes more.  Well, it wasn't what you'd call playing--I did scales and modes and just noodled.  Couldn't play an actual song, not one. That was when I was still working.  Now that I'm retired and have all the time in the world, I'll play maybe for an hour in the morning and then again late at night after the wife has gone off to bed.  But now, I concentrate on the tunes I like, a new one here and there and all the while trying to improve the songs I know.  I also just noodle.  I'll unplug when I don't like what I'm hearing any more--when there's no direction or something or if I'm just repeating what I already know.
Anyway, I'm older--don't aspire anymore to be like Stevie Ray and I'm generally happy with my speed but if I can increase my speed, well then I can see something new going on.  My real aspiration is to develop more of  a "feel" for my playing as in BB King.
So, I've appreciated this thread and I'm glad you brought it up. Academics applied to the guitar.  Cool.


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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline uburoibob

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2007, 01:59:17 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

Bob you must tell us what you experience when you play chords.

Simon
Vancouver,BC



Well, that's where the initial move to double stops comes in. Learning the immediate relationship of the note you are on to those within your reach. Initially, when you play guitar, you memorize chord forms. And those all remain valid. Using the scalar system, you build chords as you go - looking at where you are and adding tones to get the chord/inversion you are after. So, eventually, if you are playing a melody and want to punctuate it with chords, you simply grab the notes within your grasp (literally) that work.

The And Your Bird Can Sing solo piece I posted ( http://forums.parkerguitars.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5508 ) was done that way. I worked it all out, but in working it out, started with a single line of the melody, added the harmony to the melody, added bass and then the chord tones. Granted what I did there is a pretty simple approach to it, as there is no counter point or anything like that - the rhythm is very linear.

I didn't get a lot of comments on the arrangement and was hoping to generate a bit more interest in arranging for solo guitar by posting it. Just wondering if no one is interested in playing in that manner....

Anyway, I am not sure this answers your question, but in general, it becomes a tactile mapping of the entire fingerboard and learning who your neighbors are for any given location. My weakness here is that I don't tend to think about all this in notation terms, but instead have relied on my ear for working with melody, harmony and rhythm. I have really gotta work on rhythm and the ability to do counterpoint.

Bob

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« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 02:22:41 PM by uburoibob »
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2007, 02:26:24 PM »
Nope missed it by a mile. No worries.

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline uburoibob

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2007, 03:04:41 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

Nope missed it by a mile. No worries.

Simon
Vancouver,BC



Hmmm... What do I experience when I play chords?  Utter joy? Orgasmic enjoyment? Twisted fingers? Harmony?

REALLY not sure by what you meant when you typed: "Bob you must tell us what you experience when you play chords."

So... couple of worries. I'd love to be able to answer the question, if only I understood it!

Bob

1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline uburoibob

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2007, 03:38:43 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

Nope missed it by a mile. No worries.

Simon
Vancouver,BC



Or were you just being funny? Usually, I get funny.

Bob

1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2007, 04:10:00 PM »
What I mean is related to the topic of this thread. Finger pressure,effort and what its like for you to change from one chord to another. I'm sorry I thought since I was re-asking the question that is was understood. It's very common that I am misunderstood as sometimes my communication is a little off. Sorry Bob.

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2007, 04:16:54 PM »
I can't play 3x's as fast as my youtube videos. I was referring to a differnt moment in time. I can play maybe 30-40% better than the videos at this point.

Blancat I'm happy you are getting something from this thread. Yes being able to use more type2 muscle fibers will allow more finger independance. I find it's actually the muscles that are tense still from working the last finger that interferes the most with the next finger to work. It's about turning off the muscle fast enough and thats what type2s do. Type1s take too much time to release. Now keep in mind that motions of one finger will often affect another because of the tendons and tissues in your hand. Not much you can about that.

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline uburoibob

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« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2007, 04:27:53 PM »
Simon, SO sorry for misunderstanding. I just went back and found your original question that I had missed....

In direct response, I guess it's got to have been 35 years since I used Type 1 muscles in playing guitar. So, finger pressure for me, as a result of just following the regimens I outlined, are very natural. I don't feel a need to press too hard or worry about not pressing enough. It could be that I play a wide variety of string gauges, and practice on a variety of instruments... on my acoustic archtops, I tend to use medium strings (13-50whatever), on my flat top, light (12-40 or 50 whatever), on my gipsy guitars I use gypsy strings which are very flexible but not thin, on my flamenco guitars I use hard tension, on my Flys, I use 10-46s, on my electric archtops I use light 12-52 electric strings.

I guess using all these different instruments and playing guitar a LOT just sort of takes care of me having to micro manage my fingers. Ultimately, they just do what they need to do. It all worked in a very evolutionary way for me. Plus, I am double jointed and can pull chords that many can't. In other words, I worried more about what I was playing and how I was playing it rather than worrying about how to make it happen.

So to answer your question in as simple a way as possible, I press just enough.

Again, I ain't no pro. I just play one on the Parker forum. Seriously, I think you are on to something here, and if you can come up with better exercises than the more traditional ones I've indicated, then that would be great. Anything that makes people realize their goals is a good thing.  I am very open to innovation.

Bob

1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2007, 04:49:52 PM »
thanks Bob. You're answer doesn't suprise me actually. When I asked Martone about how he controlled his tension he raised an eyebrow and said"Huh? What do you mean?"

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline prjacobs

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« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2007, 07:28:46 PM »
Hi All,
I'm jumping in way late, but I wanted to mention a few things I've experienced playing both guitar and piano.  
I competed in some classical piano competitions, practicing very physically demanding music, hours a day for months and what I've found, and it's really no secret, is:
The only way to really learn how to play extremely difficult music is to play it slow enough to be relaxed, not only physically, but equally as importantly, mentally.  If I bring tension into my body or mind at the beginning stages of learning something, it will be extremely hard to lose it.  If I could be patient, not press and try and learn too fast, I would get positive feedback from my tension free playing:)  There are some techniques that would be a strain for me, so I'd find alternatives, perhaps leaving out a note of a chord, etc.  I also would pick pieces that would let me show off what I do well.
I also played competitive tennis and I had to stop when I started competing on the piano.  What I found, and I think that it relates to other peoples comments about their inability to play after strenuous work, is that my left hand muscles got so big from tennis that they seized up playing the piano, specifically the muscle below my left thumb.  You'd think that having big strong muscles would help you, but they just get in the way of speedy playing, since they seemed to fail much quicker than the muscles in my right hand.  Also, my teacher pointed out that when I used my thumb, I tended to bend from the joint at the base of the thumb instead of thinking of the thumb as extending through your hand all the way through the next bone, ending near the wrist.  This gave my thumb much more support and I think this might help anyone experiencing fatigue.
When you'd see a tall, skinny boxer like Tommy Hearns, he'd punch with much more power than his musclebound opponents.


Paul
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 07:29:52 PM by prjacobs »
 

Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2007, 09:04:05 PM »
quote:
I competed in some classical piano competitions, practicing very physically demanding music, hours a day for months and what I've found, and it's really no secret, is:
The only way to really learn how to play extremely difficult music is to play it slow enough to be relaxed, not only physically, but equally as importantly, mentally. If I bring tension into my body or mind at the beginning stages of learning something, it will be extremely hard to lose it. If I could be patient, not press and try and learn too fast, I would get positive feedback from my tension free playing


Several people mentioned being relaxed. I think this is a major key for playing well whatever situation you are in. I tend to get tense mentally and physically sometimes, and bad playing somtimes ensues, although other people will tell me I sounded good, I am just about ready to chop the guitar for firewood. That's how it was in the past, anyway. I would say from personal experience that 50% of the battle really is in your head. If you don't think you can do it, you probably won't.

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2007, 09:19:08 PM »
Paul (prjacobs), thank you for chiming in. I knew I was on to something and your reply is very well put together, first hand application and compelling observation.

That tension free training principle is paramount. Moving your fingers without tension like you describe IS using Type2 muscle. If you strain, it's Type1.

I have to agree that muscularity is a hiderance. My forearms are probably a little overcrowded muscle wise and my hands are often stiff from my workouts and work. Seriously I've had a year off work and it made a LOT of difference in my consistency day to day.

Simon
Vancouver,BC