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Author Topic: Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres  (Read 13716 times)

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #75 on: September 14, 2007, 05:45:46 PM »
quote:
The other major factor is how many muscle fibers are innervated by a single neuron. High dexterity requires a neron to go to few fibers and brute bulky clumsy strength manuvers require a single nerve to control many more times the number of fibers. This ratio is highly genetic but probably can be influenced some by repetition(tactile memory or motor memory?). Here shredders are favored if they have more of a high nerve ending to muscle fiber ratio (1 to 1) in that particular motor unit. Rythym guys who can do bar chords on a bluegrass acoustic all day long are favored if they have a low ratio (1 to many ) ie one nerve ending synapses with many muscle fibers.


Does any of that have to do with your sense of touch and/or tactile memory? Or having very steady hands that can make very precise movements?

 
quote:
It would be interesting to measure the circumference of the left forearm and wrist in 10,000 rythym players versus 10,000 shredders. They might be closer to the same because rythym players do a lot of bar chords which require strength and shredders require speed and these are both type 2 (which are bulkier). But there are other factors. For example, too much bulk will slow you down. So its bulk only in the right places within the proper ratio with the other anatomy to optimize the task.


Interesting proposal. When I was younger (17-21), I had some pretty well developed forearms from doing a lot of BMX bike riding on dirt trails, dirt jumping, stunts, etc. I never really thought about it, but your forearm muscles also have to do some work when you play guitar. I wonder if that has anything to do with why the skinnier guitarists seem to always be the ones who blaze up and down the neck better? Not always ths case, but often is.

quote:
I do think type 1 and 2 come into play for us guitar geeks to some extent , but I think we have also been confusing the concept with other factors such as relaxing or tensing collatoral muscle bundles as well as oppositional groups, as well as changing the nerve to muscle fiber ratio within the motor unit (dexterity control) as well as optimizing tactile sensation and proprioception.



In my mind, it's kind of hard to seperate them all because they are all so integrated.



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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline simonlock

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #76 on: September 14, 2007, 08:49:59 PM »
quote:

Interesting proposal. When I was younger (17-21), I had some pretty well developed forearms from doing a lot of BMX bike riding on dirt trails, dirt jumping, stunts, etc. I never really thought about it, but your forearm muscles also have to do some work when you play guitar. I wonder if that has anything to do with why the skinnier guitarists seem to always be the ones who blaze up and down the neck better? Not always ths case, but often is.



Paul the way I feel while playing is that about 90% of the muscle contractions are done in my forearms. I don't feel anything in my hands until i become tense.

Simon
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #77 on: September 14, 2007, 09:18:36 PM »
Huh, interesting. I think it depends on how I am playing. When I am doing legato stuff, it seems to be mostly my hand doing the work, more than the forearms anyway. When I play chords and stuff, the forearm comes into play a lot more. If I get cramps, it's either the muscle between my thumb and forefinger or the muscle between my pinky and wrist.

I never really thought much about what muscles are doing what, I just play. [8D]

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« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 09:20:12 PM by Paul Marossy »

Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline stelor

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2007, 01:07:25 AM »
Simon, this is such an interesting thread.  I thought I'd share my experiences with you as well.  

I started playing about 25 years ago back when I was in high school.  I took lessons and progressed relatively slowly as I lacked the confidence and obvious coordination at the time.  I was one of those people who never truly "got it" and as a result I would just noodle around playing the same things over and over.  Of course, I got pretty good at those certain songs, licks, runs, etc. that I never evolved as a guitarist.  

As I hung out with people that played more and more, I picked things up, but i was always playing tense.  I over-compensated for my lack of confidence by trying to squeeze the strings through the neck.  After awhile, I put the guitar down for a few years to go to college and then picked it up again about 5 years later.  I found that I retained the simpler things and lost the concepts of the theories, etc.  I couldn't really remember the scales I knew from before but i knew what sounded good when I experimented.  

Being a bit more mature, I was just looking to re-learn and retrain myself (after all it wasn't ALL about impressing girls anymore).  So I RELAXED.  And I played things I could never play before.  I was able to make my guitar do things I could only dream about when I was younger.  When i am playing by myself, it feels like I am hardly even pressing on the strings.  The fact the I now play a Mojo helps even more because the effort to play the Parker fretboard is so effortless.  When I get in the 'zone' I can barely even feel my fingers moving.

Last November I started working out 3 times a week, and it involves a lot of weight lifting and martial arts.  When I lift to build mass in my upper body, my arms will ache for a day or two (or more).  During that time I find that I tense up similarly to when i was younger.  Even though I have the confidence, my muscles refuse to relax and i begin to over-compensate again.  When i work on my lower body during training, I find it much easier to play the guitar.  Just something i noticed but never really figured out until I read this thread.


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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline prjacobs

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2007, 09:10:09 PM »
Stelor,
Yes impressing girls and playing guitar have a lot in common.  No girl wants a guy who's tense.  Let's face it, as we get cooler, older and more experienced, we relax.  Girls like that, ditto for audiences.
Being from both the guitar world and piano world I can tell you that in classical piano, lifting weights absolutely kills your technique and is totally discouraged.  Go swim, that's okay.
Earlier someone brought up picking.  My feeling is that picking without any finger supporting your hand on the guitar is ultimately a more relaxing way to play.  
We're all sharing this very precise information because we've taken the time to feel and listen.  Slow practice has given us the feedback we need. Nothing else works.  As long as you're not some kind of genetic anomaly, and don't have a tin ear, slow practice will give you professional level chops.  My piano teacher used to say that practicing properly, 3 hours a day, six days a week for a year, will give you a good working foundation.
 

Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2007, 08:57:05 AM »
You know, I don't know how, I forgot to mention one thing that is pretty important for me! Stretching. I almost always stretch my fingers before I play.

First, I pull back on each one of my four fingers while holding the other ones down, just enough to where you can feel it really stretching. Second, I try to stretch each finger apart from eachother as far as I can get them to go.

When I am done with this 30 second process, my fingers are ready to do whatever I want them to do, especially the five or six fret stretches. Of course, this has to be done with care as you don't want to hurt yourself, but I find that doing this really helps me loosen up. Especially if I was doing something strenuous the day before and I'm feeling kind of stiff.

I don't know exactly where I picked this up, but it really works for me. I think I just started doing it one day on my own, IIRC.

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline David Tomkins

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2007, 11:15:57 AM »
stretching is good, but remember muscles are like chocolate bars.  put a bar in the fridge, take it out cold and stretch it.  what happens?  cracks.  warm it up and it is soft, pliable and yummy.  there's a  lesson in there somewhere  (warm chocolate is better than cold, i think)

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2007, 11:42:16 AM »
YMMV. I get up at 4:00 AM to play/practice with my headphones on. I do my stretching thing and then practice for 60-90 minutes before I get ready to be at work at 6:15AM. I know it won't work for everyone, but it's usually the first thing I do in the morning, and it helps me. [;)]

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline David Tomkins

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« Reply #83 on: September 20, 2007, 02:08:39 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Marossy

YMMV. I get up at 4:00 AM to play/practice with my headphones on.

good grief, you are one dedicated strummer!!![:0]  at 4am i'm still playing my fly in the middle of the second encore at solo gig at a sold out Wembley Stadium concert.[;)]

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Yoyo

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« Reply #84 on: September 20, 2007, 04:57:34 AM »
Good on you Paul for having that level of self discipline. It pays dividends.
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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« Reply #85 on: September 20, 2007, 06:24:23 AM »
Well, it's the only time I can really practice. With a 5 yr old girl and a 3 yr old boy around, they want all my attention when I'm awake. And I am too tired at 8:00PM to practice after a ten hour work day, I just start falling asleep because it relaxes me too much. So, if I want to play guitar, that's generally the only time I have to do it. As a matter of fact, it's 4:20AM right now, I better get going! [8D]

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« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 06:25:12 AM by Paul Marossy »

Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline prjacobs

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« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2007, 04:37:19 PM »
Paul,
We are not worthy... I have a 16 year old daughter and a 14.5 year old son.  I just went into my son's room and he was playing the beginning of Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young's version of Woodstock.  I actually... without showing it... got a little choked up, listening to my son play with such good feel.  He's a good guitarist.  When your kids get a little older, I hope that you have to opportunity to pass down the wonderful gift of music to them.
 

Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Paul Marossy

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres
« Reply #87 on: September 22, 2007, 05:50:35 PM »
quote:
When your kids get a little older, I hope that you have to opportunity to pass down the wonderful gift of music to them.


Yeah, that would be cool. I'm not sure what they are going to be interested in wheh they are older - they seem to be interested in everything at the moment! [:0]

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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline Strandwolf

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« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2007, 07:45:04 PM »
Great thread, which I'll mull over, learn from, and perhaps research and contribute to, if possible.
While I have it in mind, I'll just say that one of my teachers (or was it a book) said to only practice 20 minutes at a stretch because anything done beyond that time period would likely not be committed to one's long term 'muscular memory'. Get up, stretch and walk for a few minutes, or several hours or longer, then practice again. This also would tend to inhibit carpal tunnel trouble, which is a curse that's shut down more than a few musicians for a long recuperative period, at least.
Also, just read, I think, in Vintage Guitar mag, the interview with Rick Holmstrom (I think it was him) who learned from someone not to press your entire index finger down across all the frets when making a bar chord. Relax the big area that your other fingers will press down to make that E shape above the barre. Clamping down is fatiguing and slows ya down....
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Type I and Type II Muscle Fibres

Offline David Tomkins

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« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2007, 09:38:28 AM »
the 20 minute things is true.  rather than hammer away at a technique i will have a break and then come back to it.  it often feels like my brain has assimilated the info (like a librarian putting a book back ont he right shelf) and it the movements are coming from a deeper level

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