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Author Topic: Giant Steps Analysis  (Read 9319 times)

Offline loumt123

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Giant Steps Analysis
« on: March 07, 2008, 11:45:59 PM »
Here's my Giant Steps Analysis...I tried my best to figure out, explain, and describe it. I think it's pretty close to the mark but maybe someone can find some issues with it. Here you go.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj87/loumt123/Giant_StepsBig.jpg
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 11:46:57 PM by loumt123 »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline simonlock

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2008, 11:58:14 PM »
Seems logical Lou. Great tune. I love what Greg Howe does with this one.

Simon
Vancouver,BC
2000 Fly Supreme
1998 Fly Supreme w/Jerome Little knobs
1999 Fly Artist w/Ken Parker sig and Jerome Little knobs
2006 Fly Nylon w/Jerome Little knobs
2002 Fly Classic Hardtail
2006 Fly Classic
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2001 MidiFly
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline BrainWorm

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2008, 03:03:01 AM »
Coltrane changes were complicated when I read other people explaining them. Then I read Coltrane's explanation. Up a minor third, up a fourth. Until you get back to where you started. More or less, kind of. major, dom 7th, major, dom 7th, major, dom 7th. And so on.

The complicated way: major go up a minor third to a dom 7th, when you go up a fourth to a major you are actually going down a fifth because the dom 7th is really the five chord leading to the one chord. Try remembering that when you are going through chord changes.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline bno

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2008, 09:11:31 AM »
Good work Lou.  This is one of those tunes than I've just never been able to get worked out in my head so that it flows, in spite of myself.  I'm going to include your sheet and BrainWorms comments in my notebook. Thanks.
'94 Fly Deluxe
Listen first, then play.

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline loumt123

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2008, 09:35:26 AM »
Greg Howe brings new life into Giant Steps....I really like his version too.

   Brainworm, I haven't really read much into Coltrane's method, but I thought he was using ii - V - I progressions with chord substitutions. The ii - V - I is king in jazz so I kind of thought it might be an alteration of that. Where did you read explenations on his stuff? I'd like to read some of it. Then maybe I can get my head around some of what he's doing [:I]
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 09:43:05 AM by loumt123 »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline BrainWorm

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2008, 03:23:40 AM »
I think the ii - V - I  is an old fashioned way of doing it. The Coltrane changes I'm thinking about is a newer way of going through chords. The song Giant Steps has the ii-V-I  system but if you  look further the G maj7-Bb7-Eb maj7  has the up a minor third-up a fourth ( or up a minor third-down a fifth). It's a way of going through tonal centers. As the notes in the song explain. It's just hard to follow the explanation in the notes, for me. It's a lot to remember. I found Coltrane's explanation in the  liner notes of one of his albums.My way of trying it out: take a three chord song I-IV-V and try the major up a minor third to dom 7th, up a fourth to a major and keep it up until you arrive back at the original chord. It works. You can take a three chord song and it turns into too many chords to count song. But you don't  have to remember the chords, just the system. I'm nowhere near competent in this, it's how I help myself remember this.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline simonlock

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2008, 09:52:35 AM »
Except for the Bmaj7-D7-Gmaj7-Bb7-Ebmaj7 and the identical but down a M3 Gmaj7-Bb7-Ebmaj7-F#7-Bmaj7 the rest just looks like ii-V-I s. When you listen to those two sections they really stand out as quickly modulating chords. After the first modulation section you get the little ii V I to establish a new starting point for it to happen again but a M3 lower and then it just goes through ii V Is in the already established keys from the modulating sections Ebmaj-Gmaj-Bmaj-Ebmaj up to here the keys are moving up a Majrd and then a quick ii V I to establish the beginning f the first modulation section just before the repeat in Bmaj.

Simon
Vancouver,BC
2000 Fly Supreme
1998 Fly Supreme w/Jerome Little knobs
1999 Fly Artist w/Ken Parker sig and Jerome Little knobs
2006 Fly Nylon w/Jerome Little knobs
2002 Fly Classic Hardtail
2006 Fly Classic
2006 Fly Mojo
1999 Fly Deluxe w/Gen1s
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« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 09:56:35 AM by simonlock »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline uburoibob

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2008, 05:49:53 PM »
Kinda cool that this thread is a conversation that's been continuing for decades. Here's a book that I picked up a few years ago that takes the analysis to greater lengths:

http://www.stagepass.com/groupartist/artist_item_detail.hperl?Artist=Diorio%2C+Joe&Invnum=GF9520

Check it out!

Also, if you wanna have some fun charting a roadmap, arpeggiate all the chord changes or try linear movement through the changes and see the patterns emerge. Gene Bertonicini has an arrangement with inversions that are just plain nuts - but then you have to see/hear his "Body and Soul" arrangement...

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline uburoibob

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    • Bob Martin 11:11
Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2008, 06:05:00 PM »
Here are some cool versions:

1. Gene Bertoncini with a medley of Giant Steps and A Misty Night. His reharmonization for Giant Steps is pretty challenging. http://www.bobmartin1111.com/Giant_Steps_On_A_Misty_Night_GB.mp3

2. Steve Greene Trio's version.  http://www.bobmartin1111.com/GiantSteps_SG.mp3

Steve's version is all melody and done slowly. A beautiful treatment.

Enjoy.

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline BrainWorm

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2008, 12:49:05 AM »
What going up a minor third to a dom 7th and then up a fourth (or down a fifth) is really doing is descending by major thirds. You're just setting up the dominant 7th chord to be the V chord to get you to the I chord. That I chord is a major third lower that the starting  chord. Do that several times and you're back to the original chord. I forget what the ii chords are  used for, unless as simonlock says they are to introduce a new area to modulate with. I kind of thought the ii chords were part of the way to descend by major thirds from the original key or chord. I'll read uburoibob's links in a little while to check it out.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline Lightspeeder

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2008, 02:24:39 PM »
It's called a multi-tonic system. Coltrane uses 3 and 4 tonics systems a lot. See Central Park West and of course Giant Steps.

rock on,
German

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline prjacobs

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2008, 09:46:13 PM »
Many polytonal thoughts come to mind as I look at these chords, but the most basic one I was taught, by the great Sanford Gold, was substituting for the Dominant 7th chords in minor 3rd patterns.  So Bmaj.7, D7, resolving to G fits that pattern, even though the B chord is a major 7th.  Ditto for Gmaj.7th, B flat 7 to E flat.  My feeling is that the melody came first....  
But, who knows, perhaps it just fell to earth like Newton's apple.  I've written other things about Sanford Gold's harmonic approach on the forum, if anyone's interested.
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline simonlock

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2008, 09:59:11 PM »
Man I wish I'd been clear headed back in high school and headed to GIT or Berklee like I dreamed of. I really envy those that spend that much time and money committed to learning. Sadly I didn't follow the best path for the better part of my life if I had you guys might own my CDs by now. German, do older people ever get scholarships to Berklee? What kind of level would be required to peak enough interest to give one out?

Simon
Vancouver,BC
2000 Fly Supreme
1998 Fly Supreme w/Jerome Little knobs
1999 Fly Artist w/Ken Parker sig and Jerome Little knobs
2006 Fly Nylon w/Jerome Little knobs
2002 Fly Classic Hardtail
2006 Fly Classic
2006 Fly Mojo
1999 Fly Deluxe w/Gen1s
2001 MidiFly
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline Picks

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2008, 12:42:46 AM »
Coltrane, it is said, most likely lifted the major third cycle from the (gasp!) pop tune/bandstand staple of the day, Have You Met Mrs.Jones. PLaying over this tune, especially 6 measures in particular can be extremely helpful. My opinion only.

The minor third or diminished cycle was a staple in the dominant line/tritone sub approaches Parker used, and Coltrane no doubt experimented with those as a foundation. Who hasn't? in jazz anyways.

Back to a topic elsewhere on a similar theme: Coltrane, during some of his most notable years, was a junkie.

So was Parker, so was almost every jazzoid of that era save Gillispie. Now their heroin inspired improvisations make up curriculum. I know this will spawn some heated rejection, but folks, the facts speak for themselves. I digress...

School? Why not? Those days (when Jazz was being crafted and innovated, not a static genre pretty much ended in the mid 60's)and the period in which those 'timestamped' jems were brought to life, are dead too. Their historical significance is irrefutable. However, I have to say that most cats I know who can play within these concepts, don't. Great fodder for educational material.

It was an experiment that Coltrane exploited on literally 2 or 3 tunes.

I think mastering a head like Donna Lee or Orinthology will serve a broader purpose and seed potential for elaborations on those phrases that are probably more useful or practical.

But then, that's just my opinion. Bring on the hate mail.

Check out Slominsky's Theasaurus of Scales for actual source of material that apparently, Coltrane looked upon as biblical.

Yes, the major third cycle is in there. Hmmmm....
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 12:50:38 AM by Picks »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline loumt123

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2008, 04:51:25 AM »
Isn't it wonderful when Picks logs on to share his infinite, glorious knowledge?

Donna Lee, Anthropology, and Ornithology are all rhythm changes
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 04:52:19 AM by loumt123 »