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Author Topic: Giant Steps Analysis  (Read 9331 times)

Offline prjacobs

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2008, 05:29:11 AM »
So much for the theory that you only think it sounds better when you take drugs.
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline sekt88

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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2008, 09:36:07 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

Seems logical Lou. Great tune. I love what Greg Howe does with this one.



less than 4% of Greg Howe´s rendition has anything to do with Giant Steps.

Harmonically he turns the whole piece into a static blues vamp.

No playing through the changes whatsover.

He is however a very good guitar technician.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 09:43:07 AM by sekt88 »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline loumt123

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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2008, 11:03:15 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by prjacobs

So much for the theory that you only think it sounds better when you take drugs.



huh?
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline bno

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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2008, 11:32:36 AM »
Apropos the current discussion re: jazz, popular music, Richard Rodgers, Rhythm Changes, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_You_Met_Miss_Jones%3F

Joe Pass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xo-GgNve4k

Robbie Williams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9SlT95XWh8

Coltrane  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pXWKwUYGKg

McCoy Tyner - Giant Steps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pXWKwUYGKg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yptx5PX-VIs

I won't get into the drug discussion because it will take us historically back through a whole spectrum of art forms and take us way off topic.  

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Listen first, then play.

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline prjacobs

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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2008, 11:37:44 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by cmpkllyrslf96

quote:
Originally posted by prjacobs

So much for the theory that you only think it sounds better when you take drugs.



huh?



The saying goes...  You only THINK that music sounds good when you're high. If you were straight, you'd realize how bad it really is. I think that the above mentioned jazz greats seem to contradict that mantra.  It's a fact that some of the greatest music has been written by very stoned people.
And of course we have Bob Dylan, who practically chain smoked joints while writing many of the greatest, deepest songs of my lifetime.
And, yes, we must include the Beatles, who supposedly were turned on for the first time by Dylan in a New York hotel room.
Just going for a little humor here....
But remember kids, don't try this at home!
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline Picks

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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2008, 12:23:00 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by cmpkllyrslf96

Isn't it wonderful when Picks logs on to share his infinite, glorious knowledge?

Donna Lee, Anthropology, and Ornithology are all rhythm changes



Pretty much. Gershwin's classic and it's form are the underlying progressions to pretty much every jazz/bop tune that exists in the jazz lexicon. If the form isn't present, the harmonic devices used in solo and theme, even in modal settings, still borrow from the lick library built on that form.

Anyone who can actually play II V I candences, or improvises over those forms, has probably cut their teeth on I Got Rhythm or as it has been called Rhythm Changes. It is the GYM of Jazz.

Singin In The Rain, The Flintstones, The Johnny Carson theme...hundreds, hundreds of tunes exploit the I VI II V progression the same way I IV V is the foundation of blues.

Yet, unless you understand devices like the ones Parker mastered, like the TriTone Substitution and Back Cycling, use of Secondary Dominants, melody enclosure etc...Giant Steps isn't going to be a realistical goal. Really, it just isn't. You won't understand why Coltrane was doing what he did.

So, if you can't play Donna Lee or Cherokee or even cruise through Rhythm Changes...get your cart behind your horse and enjoy! Any Parker blues presents a challenge to a key center based or modal improvisor. Developing the time/swing factor alone, found in those lines, independent of the pitch schemes, is a priceless reward.

Giant Steps is a awesome experiment in breaking conventions long used in bop improv. But playing that piece is one thing, using the concepts that piece is based upon and than freely using them for superimposition on 'standard' changes like the aforementioned, that is the real goal.

Try that on a Joabim tune and see how long you keep your gig.

Seriously...


« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 12:29:02 PM by Picks »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline loumt123

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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2008, 02:06:13 PM »
I'd imagine "groovin' high" was written under the influence...and it's one of my favs. Catchy tune [:D]
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline bno

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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2008, 04:13:21 PM »
Interesting how this thread has evolved into a dialog on the difference between intellectually understanding something musical and musically expressing something intellectual.  I somewhat understand intellectual concepts like tritone substitions, whole step/half step scales and interval circles.  I can't for the life of me make it sound like music and I just marvel at how jazz artists can so fluidly tie it together and make it sound right.
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Giant Steps Analysis

Offline Picks

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« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2008, 01:42:42 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by bno

Interesting how this thread has evolved into a dialog on the difference between intellectually understanding something musical and musically expressing something intellectual.  I somewhat understand intellectual concepts like tritone substitions, whole step/half step scales and interval circles.  I can't for the life of me make it sound like music and I just marvel at how jazz artists can so fluidly tie it together and make it sound right.

'94 Fly Deluxe
Listen first, then play.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZRbuNfhFEc&feature=related

It's precisely what I was alluding to pointing out the drugs connection. Medicating stops thinking. There is no intellectualization, only the now.

Concepts are great, and they're fun to study as is. But it's like reading a book about flying a plane compared to actually flying one.

One can make a distinction between knowledge and understanding. I know some folks who 'know' a great deal about music in an academic way, but they're horrible musicians.

Since this is a guitar forum, maybe this example: one could say you could melt down all plectrum guitar innovations down to two guys. Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian. (Of course there's more to it!)

Nevertheless the point is, neither of these guys could even write their own name. Both were completely illiterate. Wouldn't know they were using things like tritone subs or any other 'labeled' device.

Their music was nothing less that genius.

It's a the way of the centipede.



« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 02:19:54 AM by Picks »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline uburoibob

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« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2008, 05:48:52 AM »
I guess I'd like to be in a plane with a pilot who wasn't on drugs...

Seriously... art and brains seldom go hand in hand without some sort of buffer between them - alcohol, drugs, mental illness. I know that the technically wonderful appeal to a lot of guys in this forum, but I'll take a Link Wray over a Joe Satirani any day. To me, it's the basest of emotions that gets me hooked rather than the the refined technique. Not that I don't appreciate it all. But if I had ONE song to take to a desert island to hear over and over, it would not be the performance of a virtuoso. It would be someone doing what they popped outta mama doing. Thinking about it, that one song might just be The Beatles rendition of "Twist and Shout."

Bob




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Giant Steps Analysis

Offline loumt123

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« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2008, 08:18:31 AM »
picks = giant TROLL

  you can't even BEGIN to compare django to anyone. His picking variation isn't even used by anyone except the gypsies. I guess you're not familiar with gj guitar.

Django wasn't a jazz guitarist, he was a gypsy jazz guitarist. HUGE difference.
 

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Offline bno

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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2008, 08:31:23 AM »
I am compelled to offer up the other side of the coin as we so glibly romanticize the lifestyle and mythology of the creative process.  It is equally true that a major portion of our civiliation's music and art was not done under the haze of drug and alcohol fueled delerium.  I happent to beleive that our "revered" collection of mental misfits acheived most of their brilliance and created their greatest works during moments of lucidity.  Many of the artists who fit into the negative role model category were near idiot savant - they did one thing at an extreme level of proficiency - and that's pretty much all they could do.  It doesn't diminish the contribution, but I think that through our amazement at their accomplishments we inadvertently diminish the work of artists who did it the old fashioned way, through study and simple hard work; they took their raw talent and with guidance and persistence, turned themselves into artists.  

All I really want to do here is reinforce the positive value of analytic exercises like Lou has acheived.  Picks' is probably right that for most of us, doing the real work of turning theory into practice (as in practicing your chops) is where musical growth happens but expanding your vocabulary through exercising your mental chops is still effort well spent.  
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Giant Steps Analysis

Offline loumt123

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« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2008, 08:52:54 AM »
I just think pick's "holier than thou" attitude is getting old. Picks, how about you contribute something instead of lecturing us all huh?
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline Picks

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« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2008, 11:00:45 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by cmpkllyrslf96

picks = giant TROLL

  you can't even BEGIN to compare django to anyone. His picking variation isn't even used by anyone except the gypsies. I guess you're not familiar with gj guitar.

Django wasn't a jazz guitarist, he was a gypsy jazz guitarist. HUGE difference.



With this one caustic reply you speak volumes about yourself.

Not only are you insecure and obviously have very low self esteem, you have revealed unequivocally that you have little if any real understanding of music or the art of of guitar.



 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline simonlock

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« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2008, 11:10:52 AM »
You guys are getting way too uptight. It's all in the name of fun.

Lou, I think you should apologize. You don't have to accept everyones opinion but most times there are things that can be gleamed from another's perspective.

Picks, cut Lou a break. He's a young musician trying to make his way in the jazz realm where some of the old guys think being mr.smartypants is #1 priority. It's no wonder he is defensive.

Simon
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