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Author Topic: Giant Steps Analysis  (Read 9320 times)

Offline loumt123

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Giant Steps Analysis
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2008, 04:03:20 PM »
No. Picks trolls the board trumping his superior intellect and understanding. I haven't even seen him post anything about Parker...just him critiquing intellect, passing judgement, and enlightening the forum with his take-for-fact views. Give me a break. I don't come on here to deal with someone who acts like the be all end all of  music. The way he talks, he might as well be Vai, Martone, Joe Pass, and Django rolled into one!

Picks, since you're such a hot shot, why don't you contribute something?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 04:04:05 PM by loumt123 »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline Picks

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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2008, 04:07:49 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

You guys are getting way too uptight. It's all in the name of fun.

Lou, I think you should apologize. You don't have to accept everyones opinion but most times there are things that can be gleamed from another's perspective.

Picks, cut Lou a break. He's a young musician trying to make his way in the jazz realm where some of the old guys think being mr.smartypants is #1 priority. It's no wonder he is defensive.

Simon
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A Whole Mess of Flys and I Love Them ALL!!!!!



Sounds good Simon. Sorry that your feathers were ruffled Lou. I don't beleive I addressed you personally at any point, and if you or Simon somehow percieve or project that I am trying to be #1 Smartypants, there's little I can do or wish to do to alter anyone's perception of me. I'm a no BS person and do not endure the like, from anyone.

Any time I make any kind of 'statement' that I know seems 'closed', I buffer it with...the clear addition of my opinion. You can take it for what it's worth.

I'm not here for the purpose of self aggrandizement, not trying to erect some totem to self. I am here mostly because I was searching technical info on a Fly and happened to catch an glimpse of a few things in this thread, that I have an intimate experience with.

One is composition of music, which is a cornerstone of my financial existence.

Two, questions around Coltrane's work, Giant Steps.

At this point, considering the lashing out, I truly am sorry I ever bothered.

It is clear to me, that both Lou and Simon and several others, see this forum as some kind daily ritual. The number of posts makes this clear. There is nothing wrong with that, I have never participated in any forum to that degree and I'm sure I never will as I just don't have that kind of time. Considering the frequency in which you are here, this place is obviously very 'personal' to you. Your 'turf'.

Consider this an apology, to everyone on this forum. All I was hoping to do was bring some objective, factual real world experience (unique unto myself) into the dialogue.

If anyone can dispute or show that anything I said is incorrect or out of line, please do so. I'd love to be enlightened on something I believed I had shelved more than 20 years ago.

All the best.



 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline prjacobs

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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2008, 04:58:00 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by bno

I am compelled to offer up the other side of the coin as we so glibly romanticize the lifestyle and mythology of the creative process.  It is equally true that a major portion of our civiliation's music and art was not done under the haze of drug and alcohol fueled delerium.  I happent to beleive that our "revered" collection of mental misfits acheived most of their brilliance and created their greatest works during moments of lucidity.  Many of the artists who fit into the negative role model category were near idiot savant - they did one thing at an extreme level of proficiency - and that's pretty much all they could do.  It doesn't diminish the contribution, but I think that through our amazement at their accomplishments we inadvertently diminish the work of artists who did it the old fashioned way, through study and simple hard work; they took their raw talent and with guidance and persistence, turned themselves into artists.  

All I really want to do here is reinforce the positive value of analytic exercises like Lou has acheived.  Picks' is probably right that for most of us, doing the real work of turning theory into practice (as in practicing your chops) is where musical growth happens but expanding your vocabulary through exercising your mental chops is still effort well spent.  


'94 Fly Deluxe
Listen first, then play.



I must admit that I added some fuel to the "I wrote it on drugs" fire, to see what responses my fellow forum members would write.  I couldn't resist, and I must admit I felt a certain sense of glee in stirring  the "pot" a bit.  Maybe it's because St. Patrick's Day is coming.  

I do want to say that in no way do I glibly romanticize the lifestyle and mythology of the creative process.  However, I don't necessarily feel that a composer or musician who does all of the intellectual, analytical, and musical work imaginable, suddenly becomes disconnected from the benefits of his or her knowledge if he or she has a glass of wine, smokes a joint, or for that matter does some heroin, (which I have NEVER done), and writes or plays a piece of music.  

I also feel that one doesn't necessarily go into a drug or alcohol fueled delirium and suddenly enter a world of frightening paisley monsters, becoming part of some negative aspect of the creative process if one is not totally abstinent.  Nor does one necessarily enter the realm of the mental misfit, in my opinion.  

I have been a professional composer for almost 40 years, and I can't remember that last time I got high and wrote some music. However I can also remember one song in particular that I wrote almost 25 years ago, after taking a hit or 2 of pot.  It took me a half hour to write and I was able to support family for at least 15 years on the royalties.  I'm not embarrassed about it. In fact, I'm proud of the song. And I had a great time writing it! Sometimes loosening up a bit can help the creative process.  

I agree that so much art has been done without drugs and it's most important to celebrate the creative process, not the drugs.  I have a feeling that Bach never got high and then wrote a Cantata.  (It only sounds like it.('[:)]') However, if you like the Beatles, Dylan, the Stones, Cream, Hendrix.... you get my point, and you think that they wrote these songs "during moments of lucidity," you must acknowledge that these "lucid" moments were achieved when they took drugs. One may like to think that this music was written when they weren't high, but you would be wrong.

With friendship and respect, I submit that we should all be a little more considerate and less judgmental.  I was going to say tolerant, but I don't think that's a good word.  When you "tolerate" something, you sometimes are just condescendingly putting up with something you feel is beneath you.  Being considerate is more to the point, for me.  America is such a puritanical, prudish country, as wonderful as it is in so many ways.  And it supports the arts less than any other country in the western world.

Let's loosen up a bit.  Work hard on our music, and, if you want to, occasionally have a glass of wine..... Or whatever....
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 04:58:54 PM by prjacobs »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline uburoibob

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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2008, 07:24:40 PM »
OK. I am finally biting. Which song did you write the garnered you those kinds of royalties? Your portfolio is splendid, but I gotta know which of your songs was probably, at one point, stuck in my head?

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline prjacobs

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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2008, 10:31:19 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by uburoibob

OK. I am finally biting. Which song did you write the garnered you those kinds of royalties? Your portfolio is splendid, but I gotta know which of your songs was probably, at one point, stuck in my head?

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com



Bob,
I wish I could tell you it was something you'd recognize... It was a song called "Modern Girl."  Recorded by Meatloaf in England, 1984.  It got to number 14 in England and was a top 40 song in a most of Europe.  It was also picked up on a variety of "Hits" compilation albums, with songs like "Jump," and "When Doves Cry," etc., which all went multi-platinum.  Definitely if you were in England you'd know it, but certainly not here. Maybe it's because Meatloaf took his American tour money and went to Australia with it, which made RCA instantly, understandably, pull the plug on his album.  At the time I wasn't able to collect any overseas royalties unless I sold off a piece of the publishing to a European company.  I chose a London based company and to be paid in British pounds.  At the time the dollar was almost equal to the pound.  Because the dollar became so weak compared to the pound, the exchange rate alone increased my earnings by 50% over the past 34 years.  Unfortunately, now that we're in the digital era, my windfall has basically slowed to a trickle.
I really only mentioned it to sort of thumb my nose at the knee jerk reaction to any drug use these days.  I apologize for the grandstanding. It's just that so many people who write all these things about "creating under the influence" have no first hand knowledge, so it really doesn't cut it with me.  
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline uburoibob

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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2008, 11:04:19 PM »
I didn't think you were grandstanding at all. I love your posts, so please, excuse me asking. I wasn't being nosey - I really wanted to know! You represent as a person of great experience and never flaunt it. When you bring it up, it's very matter of fact.

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline BrainWorm

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« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2008, 03:11:22 AM »
I love that Meatloaf song "Paradise By The Dashboard Lights."

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline bno

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« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2008, 07:04:02 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by prjacobs
I really only mentioned it to sort of thumb my nose at the knee jerk reaction to any drug use these days.  I apologize for the grandstanding. It's just that so many people who write all these things about "creating under the influence" have no first hand knowledge, so it really doesn't cut it with me.  
Please understand that it's not personal.  I was around then, too.  And I do know where you are coming from.  'We' as a musician culture tend to romanticize 'that' lifestyle.  For every one of 'you' that experienced a successful moment of serendipty that bore fruit, there were thousands that were just potted plants thinking that there was magic in the garden.  I only wanted to reinforce that Gershwin, Zappa, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Stockhausen, Cage, Bach, Glass, McLaughlin, Corea, et al. are on the other side of the coin.  If substance abuse wasn't a reliable human foible, rehab wouldn't be a successful business model.

Enough of that.  The real substance of this entire discussion revolves around the real work that musicians have to do to be better musicians.  Good work, Lou.  Interesting perspective, Picks.  And I do understand where you're coming from Paul.
'94 Fly Deluxe
Listen first, then play.

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline prjacobs

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« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2008, 08:29:27 PM »
BNO,
I was just being playful, because I couldn't help but come to the conclusion that so much amazing music has been written by people when they were high.  Most people can do that without becoming substance abusers. I'd also like to say that I've had more than a successful moment of serendipity that bore fruit.  I've had a lifetime of success, based initially on talent and then on a lot of work. I've been paid for decades to constantly have moments of revelation and serendipity.  My job is to write something great, all of the time and I don't need pot to do it.  I do it on command.  I don't have to search deep inside for some magic moment, it's just there. That's the fun of it!  By the way, I also played with Zappa, but that's another story...  Sightread a lot of his music. Not something I'd like to do high; too much hand-eye coordination involved.  Those notes come at you pretty fast... But I do know a couple of musicians who worked extensively with him who were "recreational." Frank once asked them not to smoke pot and they told him where to go... They also never made mistakes.   I must admit, I'm more impressed with his guitar playing now than I was then...  Hey, I'm not sitting around staring at my navel.  Like most everyone else on the forum, I'm studying, practicing and hopefully growing as a musician and a composer.  And I play a mean Giant Steps:) Lastly,  if you want some original music in the style of Stravinsky, Stockhausen, Cage, Bach, Glass, McLaughlin, Corea, let me know.  I'll smoke a joint and come up with something that you'll love!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 11:20:41 PM by prjacobs »
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline Bill

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« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2008, 07:38:02 AM »
Music is its own drug. It changes brain waves and can be mind altering. Introduced to us in vivo from our mothers heartbeat and used by primative man to induce communal trance, its more primal to us than our own conscienceness and as autonomic as breathing.

It is capable of inducing thought but doesn't require it.

Like smell, it must have some strong hardwiring in the brain that evokes recognition without the need for much processing.

One things for sure, my music smells without much processing. [:D]

(Even smells with a lot of processing)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 07:49:43 AM by Bill »
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Giant Steps Analysis

Offline prjacobs

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« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2008, 08:56:03 AM »
Back to Giant Steps....
One possible way of using the song as a learning tool would be to change the time values while you play.  Not forever, but just perhaps as a starting point. For instance, if you essentially quadrupled the note values, so that instead of half notes, you'd have 2 measures each for the beginning melody notes to jam on.  Carry this through the whole tune. This might give one the opportunity to establish a variety of possible choices for each chord change instead of having them fly by.  I'd also look at each chord and see what triads were contained in it.  I'm not suggesting that this is the only way to look at the chords, just one easy way to jump in. For example, an E flat M7 would contain an E flat major triad and a G minor triad.  Since you're playing slowly, you'd have the opportunity to explore playing in those different keys on top of any given chord. After playing the changes slowly and building up an understanding of what you do, than perhaps only double the time values; and then play it as written.  Hopefully by working carefully, you will have built up a reservoir of licks to draw on.
If you want to really get into it, transpose Giant Steps into all 12 keys.  My method was to practice 2 keys a day, each key a flatted 5th apart, going around the cycle of fifths, covering all of the keys in 6 days, with one day of rest. (That day of rest seems to be a Western tradition:) So, on day 1 - C,G flat, Day 2 - G, D flat, Day 3 - D, A flat, etc.  If you can play Giant Steps in all 12 keys with confidence, you've done some good work!
Why not play it in 3, making the first few notes dotted half notes, etc.  That swing, shuffle feel brings a whole different set of improvisational possibilities.
There are many different ways of looking at harmony and we seem to have a variety of viewpoints that resonate with us.  Find whatever speaks to you and go for it! Digest what you feel you need to know, put in the hours, and in the end, the hands, heart and soul will take over.
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline davecan

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« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2008, 09:29:27 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by prjacobs

Back to Giant Steps....
etc...



I just stumbled across this thread and was about to suggest slowing it down.  But you said it much more eloquently, with many great suggestions.  BRAVO.

P.S.- melody is hauntingly beautiful when played at 25% of the intended tempo.
P.P.S. - I play the whole thing with only one scale, it's called the chromatic scale.  [8D]


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Offline BrainWorm

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« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2008, 01:57:00 AM »
I would probably consider the Eb Maj7 as the same key as the G minor. Seeing if several consecutive chords were in the same key.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline prjacobs

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« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2008, 06:30:43 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by BrainWorm

I would probably consider the Eb Maj7 as the same key as the G minor. Seeing if several consecutive chords were in the same key.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."



I'm assuming that you're referring to Eb major, since Eb maj7 is a chord and not a key; but I'm not trying to be picky, I'm just trying to provide a simple jumping off point for some harmonic exploration.  I would not consider Eb Maj the same key as g minor, just because they contain the same notes. After all, when you play a g minor scale it has a totally different sound and mood than Eb major. The same is true if you jam in Eb major or g minor. If we take a look at any of our famous ii,V,I progressions and examine the minor 7th chord, say, the a minor 7th in Giant Steps, we could also apply the same basic theory. In fact, let's add the 9th and 11th on to that chord so that it contains, a,c,e,g,b,and d; Strictly for improvisational experimentation.  You have: An a minor triad, C Major triad, e minor triad and a G Major triad.  By adding the upper extensions to a basic minor 7th chord, you now have some different keys to improvise in. A basic way of achieving some polytonality.
Every one of these different Major and minor explorations will feel different when played on top of a given chord, regardless of how many common notes are shared.
 

Giant Steps Analysis

Offline BrainWorm

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« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2008, 03:12:27 AM »
Which G minor scale would you play over the G minor chord?

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."