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Offline Marco76

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« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2009, 10:51:26 AM »
A few illustrations of quarter-sawn Fly bodies. (Sorry about the focus on the Mojo shots.) I think that the Mojo must be an example of a model for which slab is sometimes used and QS sometimes used. This particular instrument is a Custom Shop product, so maybe they hand-picked a QS for it.









« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 10:55:25 AM by Marco76 »
Marco

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Offline Titus Pullo

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« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2009, 12:08:44 PM »
Marco - nice shots. My Cedar's end grain looks like the Sitka - tight lines. I really have to post some pictures.
But then I can't get around to ebaying my Nitefly-M ...

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"If you subscribe to the Stew-Mac style you have to have a template to blow your nose." - Ken Parker

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"If you subscribe to the Stew-Mac style you have to have a template to blow your nose." - Ken Parker


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Offline Titus Pullo

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« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2009, 12:31:40 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by uburoibob
I hate to say it, but the entire thread hinged on the word "though" as it immediately, intended or not, evaluated the Tulipwoods that weren't quarter sawn as somehow lesser instruments, creating offense/defense posturing.


Guilty as charged (at least in the beginning) and I think your entire post nails it pretty good, Bob.

But, in my defense, as the thread continued I became quite interested in the wood debate, etc. However, underlying and propelling all of this -- perhaps subconsciously --  was the fact that someone in marketing might have claimed something in the press release that wasn't true, and that was in my thought process. Turns out that was the case after all. Having said that, no harm and no foul; the source cleared it up for me. Now, how other people may interpret the mea culpa is a different story, even though I'm completely happy and satisfied.

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"If you subscribe to the Stew-Mac style you have to have a template to blow your nose." - Ken Parker

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"If you subscribe to the Stew-Mac style you have to have a template to blow your nose." - Ken Parker


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Offline Strandwolf

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« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2009, 12:43:40 PM »
In the final analysis perhaps it's all rock and roll.
I'll take one of each please, and play them in the dark.

Parkers: Sp Fly, PM20Pro, Mojo SC. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBFUDbOldMs
Parkers: Pick, cap, T-shirt, clock, and other assorted accouterments

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Offline Lwinn171

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« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2009, 01:15:42 PM »
Dang. How did I miss a thread about wood?!? Anyway... interesting discussion. You guys seemed to have hashed it out. Personally, I think Ken decided to set some "prettier" pieces aside for the Tulipwood guitars. The fact is, no matter how it's sawn, most poplar isn't well suited for a clear finish. It has some weird colors going on, from browns and greens (hence the green trans on the Tulipwoods). I'd be willing to bet that coloration had more to do with which became trans green Tulipwoods than any other consideration.

A couple of things I'll add, though. Even slab cutting will produce a couple of boards that display the same grain orientation as quartered. It really doesn't make as much difference in a thicker slab (like a fly billet) as it does in a thinner cut (like an acoustic top/back/side) because a thicker cut (once properly dried and then dressed into a billet) will have more stability to counter any warping. Quarter-sawn is preferred for some applications because it expands and contracts with humidity more predictably than slab. This is good for neck, especially, so you don't get twisting and bowing. And thinner pieces like Kens archtops, would benefit from this as well. More stable, more predictable in it's seasonal movement.

Fly bodies are just fine with either. And most are slab cut, by far. There are only so many trees large enough to get full Fly billets from that are perfectly quartered. As a wood worker, I don't have a preference so much as I have an understanding of the two methods for slicing up trees. I think about it when I make decisions, but also consider (maybe more strongly) the appearance of the grain. But then, I'm making furniture not guitars (big difference). The trick is to build without introducing internal stresses into the piece.

Anyway, slab cut can reveal incredible grain, as can quartered. Depends on the tree, and what you like.[;)]
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 01:18:17 PM by Lwinn171 »

Lawrence Winn
2001 Classic, 98 Deluxe
various amps, various toys

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Offline Titus Pullo

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« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2009, 01:53:19 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by Titus Pullo




I've had the 'source' look at this particular piece of wood (LE-TW #7) with an opinion that it's a hybrid of sorts (for lack of a better description) an his assessment is that the treble side of the guitar is rift and the bass side is flat-sawn.

Another image for anyone interested in wood cutting (and a link):


From yonder:

http://westcoastlands.net/SawmillCuttingMethods.html




--
"If you subscribe to the Stew-Mac style you have to have a template to blow your nose." - Ken Parker

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"If you subscribe to the Stew-Mac style you have to have a template to blow your nose." - Ken Parker


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Offline Lwinn171

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« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2009, 02:12:35 PM »
In a piece as large as a Fly billet, there is bound to be some variation in the grain structure. No surprises there. Besides, a lot of this discussion has left out an important variable. Trees are almost never perfectly round or regular. Grain can take startling twists and turns. That's what make each and every thing made from lumber a unique thing in this world. Some look more interesting or have a particular look that we find aesthetically pleasing, but every one is unique. #7 (and all the Tulipwoods) have the distinction of being especially nice pieces of poplar, hand culled from a huge amount of lumber. When you see a lot of wood, some of it starts speaking to you. The right ear can hear it loud and clear. What makes the Tulipwood's special is that they spoke to someone who was listening.

Lawrence Winn
2001 Classic, 98 Deluxe
various amps, various toys

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Offline uburoibob

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« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2009, 10:14:39 AM »
Ken has asked me to  post this:

Nice to hear from you, and thanks for your kind words.

I guess I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised at the depth of passion in this discourse!  You guys are an inspiration.

It's nice to know that after all this time the Fly guitars continue to be valued by such a high functioning group of folks.  Thanks for your enthusiasm!

Let me try and help you understand the grain orientation issue.

First of all, the term "quarter sawn" is antiquated.  No one saws wood like this anymore, with only one exception, and that is for the purpose of rendering thin sheets of spruce or cedar for the purposes of making acoustic guitar tops.  In this case, short billets of very special spruce are radially split with wedges, and then a bandsaw is used to slice thin sheets from the split face.

As someone in the forum correctly points out  (along with an excellent illustration), in old-fashioned quarter sawing,  boards are sliced alternately from the two straight faces of a quartered log.
The only other exception is oak, which is  commercially available all three grain orientations, as the look of the board's surface is very different  in the 3 styles of lumber due to the gigantic medulary rays in oaks. ( see below)

There are three styles of lumber.

1)  The most common is known as flat sawn, or plain sawn material.  This means that the faces of the board are parallel to the tangent of the outside of the tree.  This is how you cut lumber in order to maximize yield.  When you look at the face of a flat sawn board, you might see undulating lines, sometimes ovals, V, or W shaped grain patterns.  Looking at the end grain, you see long arcs of growth lines.  There is nothing wrong with flat sawn wood for most purposes.  For example, nearly all the Fly guitars were made of flatsawn material with the exception of the softwood guitars made with Spruce or Cedar bodies, which were all vertical grain material.  Flat sawn wood has good stiffness, and is mostly a stable configuration, but it does have a tendency to curl, or "cup" with changes in moisture content.  When it does "cup" it curls in the opposite direction of the grain lines.  In other words, it would cup towards the outside of the tree.

2)  Vertical grain material means that the grain lines are perpendicular to the face of the board.  When people say, "quarter sawn"  they almost certainly mean vertical grain.  Vertical grain material has the best stiffness  both along and across the grain.  it is the only choice for soundboards, whether it is guitar, violin family, piano, harpsichord, etc.

The big advantages of using vertical grain material, aside from its very regular straight grained appearance, are two..........

 First, because wood shrinks, mostly in the direction of the grain lines, a vertical grain piece of material will shrink much less across its width than the other two grain orientations.  This is important not only to instrument makers, but to furniture makers, and for any wooden product that is precisely made and will be exposed to changing conditions of humidity.

 Second, in many species of wood,  there are fibers that emanate from the center of the tree, growing horizontally and extending through the wood, weaving between the vertical grain lines.  These fibers are called medulary rays, or cross grained fibers, and can materially contribute to the cross-grain stiffness of vertical grain material in which they occur.
Because these cross grain fibers constitute a small proportion of the wood, and because they only occur as radii, they do not greatly effect the properties of flat sawn material.

3)  if a piece of material falls between 1 and 2, it is said to be rift sawn, or slash grain.  Structurally, this is the least wonderful material, as when stressed it tends to bend off to one side.  For this reason, avoid a Fender style neck with rift grain.  Although vertical grain would be best for a neck, flat sawn material is a close second.

When you look at the end of a rift cut board, the grain lines form an angle with the face.  If you look at the quartersawn drawing on the forum, you'll see that most of the material produced by old-fashioned quartersawing is actually rift cut.  This is responsible for much of the confusion, as "quartersawn" lumber can be both vertical and rift.

It is worth knowing that the structural benefits contributed by the cross grained fibers in vertical grain material are dramatically reduced by the grain being even 5° off vertical.  So, when seeking ultimate structural properties, ( like I am, in thin material for acoustic guitar making), material that is not perfectly vertical grain can be considered rift material: that is, less stiff across the grain.

One more thing,.....  the material that we used to make the tulip guitars is exactly the same kind of material that was used in the deluxe.  That is, it is all tulip poplar, or yellow poplar.  The boards that we used for those special guitars were ones that I culled out over a period of years for evenness of color and appearance.  Almost all the poplar that we were able to buy was green in the middle ( heartwood ) and a kind of dirty off-white color on the edges ( sapwood ) .  No one considers this attractive, so all the deluxe guitars made of Poplar had solid finishes.  The poplar boards that I was able to set aside for this small run were very special and unusual boards.

I should also note that the butternut material used for that short run of "Butterflies" was also a rare find.  I wanted to make more of those guitars as they sounded so wonderful, but I could never get any other material of the right size and quality.  As an aside, Paul Simon owns two of them, and played them on stage the year he toured with Dylan.

Maybe you're sorry you asked now!  I could go on, but it's late.  I hope I have helped.

Best to you, and come visit sometime and play a raging acoustic archtop if you're ever near NYC,

Ken


1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  -  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod - 2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 07:55:50 PM by uburoibob »
1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch -   2000 Fly Standard Classic in Cherry Red - http://bobmartin1111.com

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Offline Bill

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« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2009, 07:41:46 AM »
Yeah that was a great post. It was very kind of Ken to share his thoughts on this. I'm sure we all wish and hope to have that happen again.

Simon the reason we don't hate you is because you know better than anyone just how lucky you are [;)]

I am glad these extra special Flys fall in the hands of those who most appreciate them. Congrads.

A few Flys in my soup
A few Flys in my soup

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Offline Marco76

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« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2009, 10:50:33 AM »
He said we are "high functioning"! I'll never wash this monitor again.
Marco

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Offline cy2989

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« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2009, 11:06:23 AM »
We don't hate you as long as two is your limit.  Snatching up any more than that and all bets are off.

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Offline Strandwolf

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« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2009, 02:05:18 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by Marco76

He said we are "high functioning"!


I'm thinking he saw a scrubbed version of the thread, w/o my post of  07/12/2009 :  12:43:40 PM.

Hey Kenny.
Tell you what, maybe you're done with solid body ghets, but cook something up for Jeff Beck, and the world will beat a path (for better or worse). Just sayin', he's got the Strat crowd in thrall.
Well, he's still coming up with tricks for that beast, but maybe he could feature a KP on an acoustic or jazz tune.

Hey I wonder if Les Paul has played a Parker, new or older, and commented on it. He's more of an effects guy, but may have engineered "the fretless wonder". (Wonder what he thinks of the auto tuner thing).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrC_oqWq2pU
Parkers: Pick, cap, T-shirt, clock, and other assorted accouterments

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Offline Lwinn171

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« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2009, 10:23:50 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by Marco76

He said we are "high functioning"! I'll never wash this monitor again.



This actually doesn't surprise me, that Ken would be impressed with our collective knowledge. Not being flip, just saying that's why I hang out here! This is a way above average forum because it's members are the thinking type. I would argue that Fly fans tend to be just that, because the Fly appeals to just that kind of player. So, really it's Ken's fault for making a thinking man's (and woman's) guitar.

Lawrence Winn
2001 Classic, 98 Deluxe
various amps, various toys

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Offline Tree Bones

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« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2009, 12:42:52 PM »
Hi Guys,
Got to admit this thread is a little confusing and maybe wrong for some of it. Here's a few details about grain orientation and figure.

When plane sawing you don't position the log or cut in any particular fashion and are just cutting material in the shortest time possible. This is the most common type of cutting and yields a combination of each type of material, ie: quarter sawn, rift sawn and so on.

When I cut Oak I like to quarter saw because the "Tiger Stripe" figure is so cool (and worth more). It is best when the rings are as close to 90 degrees to the face of the board. As this gets to be less than 90 degrees you have less of the desired figure. This type of cutting is called "Cutting to Grade" and takes more time due to added log handling and repositioning.

Most times cutting to grade enables the figure to be brought out or for strength and stability of the finished lumber. It is easy to loose the value of quality saw logs that have figure if cut wrong, such as fiddleback, birdseye or burl and crotchwood.

Figured wood is my favorite, especially Walnut and Maple pin knot burl. [:D]



Just thought I would throw this in also. This is my "Guitar Table". It is Black Walnut with English Walnut that has been grafted (along the buldge).[;)]




More photos here: http://westcoastlands.net/ISI-10.html
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 01:06:56 PM by Tree Bones »

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Offline robertmarlin

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« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2009, 10:37:55 AM »
Wow love that Walnut table, my next guitar is going to be a walnut version, just need to rob a bank...

Charlene - ARC S2 :: Axel Rudich Custom S2
http://bestguitarworld.blogspot.com/