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Parker Lounge => ON MUSICIANSHIP AND THE ART OF PLAYING => Topic started by: loumt123 on March 07, 2008, 11:45:59 PM

Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: loumt123 on March 07, 2008, 11:45:59 PM
Here's my Giant Steps Analysis...I tried my best to figure out, explain, and describe it. I think it's pretty close to the mark but maybe someone can find some issues with it. Here you go.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj87/loumt123/Giant_StepsBig.jpg
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: simonlock on March 07, 2008, 11:58:14 PM
Seems logical Lou. Great tune. I love what Greg Howe does with this one.

Simon
Vancouver,BC
2000 Fly Supreme
1998 Fly Supreme w/Jerome Little knobs
1999 Fly Artist w/Ken Parker sig and Jerome Little knobs
2006 Fly Nylon w/Jerome Little knobs
2002 Fly Classic Hardtail
2006 Fly Classic
2006 Fly Mojo
1999 Fly Deluxe w/Gen1s
2001 MidiFly
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: BrainWorm on March 08, 2008, 03:03:01 AM
Coltrane changes were complicated when I read other people explaining them. Then I read Coltrane's explanation. Up a minor third, up a fourth. Until you get back to where you started. More or less, kind of. major, dom 7th, major, dom 7th, major, dom 7th. And so on.

The complicated way: major go up a minor third to a dom 7th, when you go up a fourth to a major you are actually going down a fifth because the dom 7th is really the five chord leading to the one chord. Try remembering that when you are going through chord changes.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: bno on March 08, 2008, 09:11:31 AM
Good work Lou.  This is one of those tunes than I've just never been able to get worked out in my head so that it flows, in spite of myself.  I'm going to include your sheet and BrainWorms comments in my notebook. Thanks.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: loumt123 on March 08, 2008, 09:35:26 AM
Greg Howe brings new life into Giant Steps....I really like his version too.

   Brainworm, I haven't really read much into Coltrane's method, but I thought he was using ii - V - I progressions with chord substitutions. The ii - V - I is king in jazz so I kind of thought it might be an alteration of that. Where did you read explenations on his stuff? I'd like to read some of it. Then maybe I can get my head around some of what he's doing [:I]
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: BrainWorm on March 09, 2008, 03:23:40 AM
I think the ii - V - I  is an old fashioned way of doing it. The Coltrane changes I'm thinking about is a newer way of going through chords. The song Giant Steps has the ii-V-I  system but if you  look further the G maj7-Bb7-Eb maj7  has the up a minor third-up a fourth ( or up a minor third-down a fifth). It's a way of going through tonal centers. As the notes in the song explain. It's just hard to follow the explanation in the notes, for me. It's a lot to remember. I found Coltrane's explanation in the  liner notes of one of his albums.My way of trying it out: take a three chord song I-IV-V and try the major up a minor third to dom 7th, up a fourth to a major and keep it up until you arrive back at the original chord. It works. You can take a three chord song and it turns into too many chords to count song. But you don't  have to remember the chords, just the system. I'm nowhere near competent in this, it's how I help myself remember this.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: simonlock on March 09, 2008, 09:52:35 AM
Except for the Bmaj7-D7-Gmaj7-Bb7-Ebmaj7 and the identical but down a M3 Gmaj7-Bb7-Ebmaj7-F#7-Bmaj7 the rest just looks like ii-V-I s. When you listen to those two sections they really stand out as quickly modulating chords. After the first modulation section you get the little ii V I to establish a new starting point for it to happen again but a M3 lower and then it just goes through ii V Is in the already established keys from the modulating sections Ebmaj-Gmaj-Bmaj-Ebmaj up to here the keys are moving up a Majrd and then a quick ii V I to establish the beginning f the first modulation section just before the repeat in Bmaj.

Simon
Vancouver,BC
2000 Fly Supreme
1998 Fly Supreme w/Jerome Little knobs
1999 Fly Artist w/Ken Parker sig and Jerome Little knobs
2006 Fly Nylon w/Jerome Little knobs
2002 Fly Classic Hardtail
2006 Fly Classic
2006 Fly Mojo
1999 Fly Deluxe w/Gen1s
2001 MidiFly
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: uburoibob on March 09, 2008, 05:49:53 PM
Kinda cool that this thread is a conversation that's been continuing for decades. Here's a book that I picked up a few years ago that takes the analysis to greater lengths:

http://www.stagepass.com/groupartist/artist_item_detail.hperl?Artist=Diorio%2C+Joe&Invnum=GF9520

Check it out!

Also, if you wanna have some fun charting a roadmap, arpeggiate all the chord changes or try linear movement through the changes and see the patterns emerge. Gene Bertonicini has an arrangement with inversions that are just plain nuts - but then you have to see/hear his "Body and Soul" arrangement...

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: uburoibob on March 09, 2008, 06:05:00 PM
Here are some cool versions:

1. Gene Bertoncini with a medley of Giant Steps and A Misty Night. His reharmonization for Giant Steps is pretty challenging. http://www.bobmartin1111.com/Giant_Steps_On_A_Misty_Night_GB.mp3

2. Steve Greene Trio's version.  http://www.bobmartin1111.com/GiantSteps_SG.mp3

Steve's version is all melody and done slowly. A beautiful treatment.

Enjoy.

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: BrainWorm on March 10, 2008, 12:49:05 AM
What going up a minor third to a dom 7th and then up a fourth (or down a fifth) is really doing is descending by major thirds. You're just setting up the dominant 7th chord to be the V chord to get you to the I chord. That I chord is a major third lower that the starting  chord. Do that several times and you're back to the original chord. I forget what the ii chords are  used for, unless as simonlock says they are to introduce a new area to modulate with. I kind of thought the ii chords were part of the way to descend by major thirds from the original key or chord. I'll read uburoibob's links in a little while to check it out.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: Lightspeeder on March 12, 2008, 02:24:39 PM
It's called a multi-tonic system. Coltrane uses 3 and 4 tonics systems a lot. See Central Park West and of course Giant Steps.

rock on,
German
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: prjacobs on March 12, 2008, 09:46:13 PM
Many polytonal thoughts come to mind as I look at these chords, but the most basic one I was taught, by the great Sanford Gold, was substituting for the Dominant 7th chords in minor 3rd patterns.  So Bmaj.7, D7, resolving to G fits that pattern, even though the B chord is a major 7th.  Ditto for Gmaj.7th, B flat 7 to E flat.  My feeling is that the melody came first....  
But, who knows, perhaps it just fell to earth like Newton's apple.  I've written other things about Sanford Gold's harmonic approach on the forum, if anyone's interested.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: simonlock on March 12, 2008, 09:59:11 PM
Man I wish I'd been clear headed back in high school and headed to GIT or Berklee like I dreamed of. I really envy those that spend that much time and money committed to learning. Sadly I didn't follow the best path for the better part of my life if I had you guys might own my CDs by now. German, do older people ever get scholarships to Berklee? What kind of level would be required to peak enough interest to give one out?

Simon
Vancouver,BC
2000 Fly Supreme
1998 Fly Supreme w/Jerome Little knobs
1999 Fly Artist w/Ken Parker sig and Jerome Little knobs
2006 Fly Nylon w/Jerome Little knobs
2002 Fly Classic Hardtail
2006 Fly Classic
2006 Fly Mojo
1999 Fly Deluxe w/Gen1s
2001 MidiFly
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: Picks on March 13, 2008, 12:42:46 AM
Coltrane, it is said, most likely lifted the major third cycle from the (gasp!) pop tune/bandstand staple of the day, Have You Met Mrs.Jones. PLaying over this tune, especially 6 measures in particular can be extremely helpful. My opinion only.

The minor third or diminished cycle was a staple in the dominant line/tritone sub approaches Parker used, and Coltrane no doubt experimented with those as a foundation. Who hasn't? in jazz anyways.

Back to a topic elsewhere on a similar theme: Coltrane, during some of his most notable years, was a junkie.

So was Parker, so was almost every jazzoid of that era save Gillispie. Now their heroin inspired improvisations make up curriculum. I know this will spawn some heated rejection, but folks, the facts speak for themselves. I digress...

School? Why not? Those days (when Jazz was being crafted and innovated, not a static genre pretty much ended in the mid 60's)and the period in which those 'timestamped' jems were brought to life, are dead too. Their historical significance is irrefutable. However, I have to say that most cats I know who can play within these concepts, don't. Great fodder for educational material.

It was an experiment that Coltrane exploited on literally 2 or 3 tunes.

I think mastering a head like Donna Lee or Orinthology will serve a broader purpose and seed potential for elaborations on those phrases that are probably more useful or practical.

But then, that's just my opinion. Bring on the hate mail.

Check out Slominsky's Theasaurus of Scales for actual source of material that apparently, Coltrane looked upon as biblical.

Yes, the major third cycle is in there. Hmmmm....
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: loumt123 on March 13, 2008, 04:51:25 AM
Isn't it wonderful when Picks logs on to share his infinite, glorious knowledge?

Donna Lee, Anthropology, and Ornithology are all rhythm changes
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: prjacobs on March 13, 2008, 05:29:11 AM
So much for the theory that you only think it sounds better when you take drugs.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: sekt88 on March 13, 2008, 09:36:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

Seems logical Lou. Great tune. I love what Greg Howe does with this one.



less than 4% of Greg Howe´s rendition has anything to do with Giant Steps.

Harmonically he turns the whole piece into a static blues vamp.

No playing through the changes whatsover.

He is however a very good guitar technician.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: loumt123 on March 13, 2008, 11:03:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by prjacobs

So much for the theory that you only think it sounds better when you take drugs.



huh?
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: bno on March 13, 2008, 11:32:36 AM
Apropos the current discussion re: jazz, popular music, Richard Rodgers, Rhythm Changes, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_You_Met_Miss_Jones%3F

Joe Pass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xo-GgNve4k

Robbie Williams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9SlT95XWh8

Coltrane  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pXWKwUYGKg

McCoy Tyner - Giant Steps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pXWKwUYGKg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yptx5PX-VIs

I won't get into the drug discussion because it will take us historically back through a whole spectrum of art forms and take us way off topic.  

Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: prjacobs on March 13, 2008, 11:37:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by cmpkllyrslf96

quote:
Originally posted by prjacobs

So much for the theory that you only think it sounds better when you take drugs.



huh?



The saying goes...  You only THINK that music sounds good when you're high. If you were straight, you'd realize how bad it really is. I think that the above mentioned jazz greats seem to contradict that mantra.  It's a fact that some of the greatest music has been written by very stoned people.
And of course we have Bob Dylan, who practically chain smoked joints while writing many of the greatest, deepest songs of my lifetime.
And, yes, we must include the Beatles, who supposedly were turned on for the first time by Dylan in a New York hotel room.
Just going for a little humor here....
But remember kids, don't try this at home!
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: Picks on March 13, 2008, 12:23:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cmpkllyrslf96

Isn't it wonderful when Picks logs on to share his infinite, glorious knowledge?

Donna Lee, Anthropology, and Ornithology are all rhythm changes



Pretty much. Gershwin's classic and it's form are the underlying progressions to pretty much every jazz/bop tune that exists in the jazz lexicon. If the form isn't present, the harmonic devices used in solo and theme, even in modal settings, still borrow from the lick library built on that form.

Anyone who can actually play II V I candences, or improvises over those forms, has probably cut their teeth on I Got Rhythm or as it has been called Rhythm Changes. It is the GYM of Jazz.

Singin In The Rain, The Flintstones, The Johnny Carson theme...hundreds, hundreds of tunes exploit the I VI II V progression the same way I IV V is the foundation of blues.

Yet, unless you understand devices like the ones Parker mastered, like the TriTone Substitution and Back Cycling, use of Secondary Dominants, melody enclosure etc...Giant Steps isn't going to be a realistical goal. Really, it just isn't. You won't understand why Coltrane was doing what he did.

So, if you can't play Donna Lee or Cherokee or even cruise through Rhythm Changes...get your cart behind your horse and enjoy! Any Parker blues presents a challenge to a key center based or modal improvisor. Developing the time/swing factor alone, found in those lines, independent of the pitch schemes, is a priceless reward.

Giant Steps is a awesome experiment in breaking conventions long used in bop improv. But playing that piece is one thing, using the concepts that piece is based upon and than freely using them for superimposition on 'standard' changes like the aforementioned, that is the real goal.

Try that on a Joabim tune and see how long you keep your gig.

Seriously...


Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: loumt123 on March 13, 2008, 02:06:13 PM
I'd imagine "groovin' high" was written under the influence...and it's one of my favs. Catchy tune [:D]
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: bno on March 13, 2008, 04:13:21 PM
Interesting how this thread has evolved into a dialog on the difference between intellectually understanding something musical and musically expressing something intellectual.  I somewhat understand intellectual concepts like tritone substitions, whole step/half step scales and interval circles.  I can't for the life of me make it sound like music and I just marvel at how jazz artists can so fluidly tie it together and make it sound right.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: Picks on March 14, 2008, 01:42:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bno

Interesting how this thread has evolved into a dialog on the difference between intellectually understanding something musical and musically expressing something intellectual.  I somewhat understand intellectual concepts like tritone substitions, whole step/half step scales and interval circles.  I can't for the life of me make it sound like music and I just marvel at how jazz artists can so fluidly tie it together and make it sound right.

'94 Fly Deluxe
Listen first, then play.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZRbuNfhFEc&feature=related

It's precisely what I was alluding to pointing out the drugs connection. Medicating stops thinking. There is no intellectualization, only the now.

Concepts are great, and they're fun to study as is. But it's like reading a book about flying a plane compared to actually flying one.

One can make a distinction between knowledge and understanding. I know some folks who 'know' a great deal about music in an academic way, but they're horrible musicians.

Since this is a guitar forum, maybe this example: one could say you could melt down all plectrum guitar innovations down to two guys. Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian. (Of course there's more to it!)

Nevertheless the point is, neither of these guys could even write their own name. Both were completely illiterate. Wouldn't know they were using things like tritone subs or any other 'labeled' device.

Their music was nothing less that genius.

It's a the way of the centipede.



Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: uburoibob on March 14, 2008, 05:48:52 AM
I guess I'd like to be in a plane with a pilot who wasn't on drugs...

Seriously... art and brains seldom go hand in hand without some sort of buffer between them - alcohol, drugs, mental illness. I know that the technically wonderful appeal to a lot of guys in this forum, but I'll take a Link Wray over a Joe Satirani any day. To me, it's the basest of emotions that gets me hooked rather than the the refined technique. Not that I don't appreciate it all. But if I had ONE song to take to a desert island to hear over and over, it would not be the performance of a virtuoso. It would be someone doing what they popped outta mama doing. Thinking about it, that one song might just be The Beatles rendition of "Twist and Shout."

Bob




2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: loumt123 on March 14, 2008, 08:18:31 AM
picks = giant TROLL

  you can't even BEGIN to compare django to anyone. His picking variation isn't even used by anyone except the gypsies. I guess you're not familiar with gj guitar.

Django wasn't a jazz guitarist, he was a gypsy jazz guitarist. HUGE difference.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: bno on March 14, 2008, 08:31:23 AM
I am compelled to offer up the other side of the coin as we so glibly romanticize the lifestyle and mythology of the creative process.  It is equally true that a major portion of our civiliation's music and art was not done under the haze of drug and alcohol fueled delerium.  I happent to beleive that our "revered" collection of mental misfits acheived most of their brilliance and created their greatest works during moments of lucidity.  Many of the artists who fit into the negative role model category were near idiot savant - they did one thing at an extreme level of proficiency - and that's pretty much all they could do.  It doesn't diminish the contribution, but I think that through our amazement at their accomplishments we inadvertently diminish the work of artists who did it the old fashioned way, through study and simple hard work; they took their raw talent and with guidance and persistence, turned themselves into artists.  

All I really want to do here is reinforce the positive value of analytic exercises like Lou has acheived.  Picks' is probably right that for most of us, doing the real work of turning theory into practice (as in practicing your chops) is where musical growth happens but expanding your vocabulary through exercising your mental chops is still effort well spent.  
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: loumt123 on March 14, 2008, 08:52:54 AM
I just think pick's "holier than thou" attitude is getting old. Picks, how about you contribute something instead of lecturing us all huh?
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: Picks on March 14, 2008, 11:00:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by cmpkllyrslf96

picks = giant TROLL

  you can't even BEGIN to compare django to anyone. His picking variation isn't even used by anyone except the gypsies. I guess you're not familiar with gj guitar.

Django wasn't a jazz guitarist, he was a gypsy jazz guitarist. HUGE difference.



With this one caustic reply you speak volumes about yourself.

Not only are you insecure and obviously have very low self esteem, you have revealed unequivocally that you have little if any real understanding of music or the art of of guitar.



Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: simonlock on March 14, 2008, 11:10:52 AM
You guys are getting way too uptight. It's all in the name of fun.

Lou, I think you should apologize. You don't have to accept everyones opinion but most times there are things that can be gleamed from another's perspective.

Picks, cut Lou a break. He's a young musician trying to make his way in the jazz realm where some of the old guys think being mr.smartypants is #1 priority. It's no wonder he is defensive.

Simon
Vancouver,BC
A Whole Mess of Flys and I Love Them ALL!!!!!
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: loumt123 on March 14, 2008, 04:03:20 PM
No. Picks trolls the board trumping his superior intellect and understanding. I haven't even seen him post anything about Parker...just him critiquing intellect, passing judgement, and enlightening the forum with his take-for-fact views. Give me a break. I don't come on here to deal with someone who acts like the be all end all of  music. The way he talks, he might as well be Vai, Martone, Joe Pass, and Django rolled into one!

Picks, since you're such a hot shot, why don't you contribute something?
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: Picks on March 14, 2008, 04:07:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

You guys are getting way too uptight. It's all in the name of fun.

Lou, I think you should apologize. You don't have to accept everyones opinion but most times there are things that can be gleamed from another's perspective.

Picks, cut Lou a break. He's a young musician trying to make his way in the jazz realm where some of the old guys think being mr.smartypants is #1 priority. It's no wonder he is defensive.

Simon
Vancouver,BC
A Whole Mess of Flys and I Love Them ALL!!!!!



Sounds good Simon. Sorry that your feathers were ruffled Lou. I don't beleive I addressed you personally at any point, and if you or Simon somehow percieve or project that I am trying to be #1 Smartypants, there's little I can do or wish to do to alter anyone's perception of me. I'm a no BS person and do not endure the like, from anyone.

Any time I make any kind of 'statement' that I know seems 'closed', I buffer it with...the clear addition of my opinion. You can take it for what it's worth.

I'm not here for the purpose of self aggrandizement, not trying to erect some totem to self. I am here mostly because I was searching technical info on a Fly and happened to catch an glimpse of a few things in this thread, that I have an intimate experience with.

One is composition of music, which is a cornerstone of my financial existence.

Two, questions around Coltrane's work, Giant Steps.

At this point, considering the lashing out, I truly am sorry I ever bothered.

It is clear to me, that both Lou and Simon and several others, see this forum as some kind daily ritual. The number of posts makes this clear. There is nothing wrong with that, I have never participated in any forum to that degree and I'm sure I never will as I just don't have that kind of time. Considering the frequency in which you are here, this place is obviously very 'personal' to you. Your 'turf'.

Consider this an apology, to everyone on this forum. All I was hoping to do was bring some objective, factual real world experience (unique unto myself) into the dialogue.

If anyone can dispute or show that anything I said is incorrect or out of line, please do so. I'd love to be enlightened on something I believed I had shelved more than 20 years ago.

All the best.



Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: prjacobs on March 14, 2008, 04:58:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bno

I am compelled to offer up the other side of the coin as we so glibly romanticize the lifestyle and mythology of the creative process.  It is equally true that a major portion of our civiliation's music and art was not done under the haze of drug and alcohol fueled delerium.  I happent to beleive that our "revered" collection of mental misfits acheived most of their brilliance and created their greatest works during moments of lucidity.  Many of the artists who fit into the negative role model category were near idiot savant - they did one thing at an extreme level of proficiency - and that's pretty much all they could do.  It doesn't diminish the contribution, but I think that through our amazement at their accomplishments we inadvertently diminish the work of artists who did it the old fashioned way, through study and simple hard work; they took their raw talent and with guidance and persistence, turned themselves into artists.  

All I really want to do here is reinforce the positive value of analytic exercises like Lou has acheived.  Picks' is probably right that for most of us, doing the real work of turning theory into practice (as in practicing your chops) is where musical growth happens but expanding your vocabulary through exercising your mental chops is still effort well spent.  


'94 Fly Deluxe
Listen first, then play.



I must admit that I added some fuel to the "I wrote it on drugs" fire, to see what responses my fellow forum members would write.  I couldn't resist, and I must admit I felt a certain sense of glee in stirring  the "pot" a bit.  Maybe it's because St. Patrick's Day is coming.  

I do want to say that in no way do I glibly romanticize the lifestyle and mythology of the creative process.  However, I don't necessarily feel that a composer or musician who does all of the intellectual, analytical, and musical work imaginable, suddenly becomes disconnected from the benefits of his or her knowledge if he or she has a glass of wine, smokes a joint, or for that matter does some heroin, (which I have NEVER done), and writes or plays a piece of music.  

I also feel that one doesn't necessarily go into a drug or alcohol fueled delirium and suddenly enter a world of frightening paisley monsters, becoming part of some negative aspect of the creative process if one is not totally abstinent.  Nor does one necessarily enter the realm of the mental misfit, in my opinion.  

I have been a professional composer for almost 40 years, and I can't remember that last time I got high and wrote some music. However I can also remember one song in particular that I wrote almost 25 years ago, after taking a hit or 2 of pot.  It took me a half hour to write and I was able to support family for at least 15 years on the royalties.  I'm not embarrassed about it. In fact, I'm proud of the song. And I had a great time writing it! Sometimes loosening up a bit can help the creative process.  

I agree that so much art has been done without drugs and it's most important to celebrate the creative process, not the drugs.  I have a feeling that Bach never got high and then wrote a Cantata.  (It only sounds like it.('[:)]') However, if you like the Beatles, Dylan, the Stones, Cream, Hendrix.... you get my point, and you think that they wrote these songs "during moments of lucidity," you must acknowledge that these "lucid" moments were achieved when they took drugs. One may like to think that this music was written when they weren't high, but you would be wrong.

With friendship and respect, I submit that we should all be a little more considerate and less judgmental.  I was going to say tolerant, but I don't think that's a good word.  When you "tolerate" something, you sometimes are just condescendingly putting up with something you feel is beneath you.  Being considerate is more to the point, for me.  America is such a puritanical, prudish country, as wonderful as it is in so many ways.  And it supports the arts less than any other country in the western world.

Let's loosen up a bit.  Work hard on our music, and, if you want to, occasionally have a glass of wine..... Or whatever....
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: uburoibob on March 14, 2008, 07:24:40 PM
OK. I am finally biting. Which song did you write the garnered you those kinds of royalties? Your portfolio is splendid, but I gotta know which of your songs was probably, at one point, stuck in my head?

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: prjacobs on March 14, 2008, 10:31:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by uburoibob

OK. I am finally biting. Which song did you write the garnered you those kinds of royalties? Your portfolio is splendid, but I gotta know which of your songs was probably, at one point, stuck in my head?

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com



Bob,
I wish I could tell you it was something you'd recognize... It was a song called "Modern Girl."  Recorded by Meatloaf in England, 1984.  It got to number 14 in England and was a top 40 song in a most of Europe.  It was also picked up on a variety of "Hits" compilation albums, with songs like "Jump," and "When Doves Cry," etc., which all went multi-platinum.  Definitely if you were in England you'd know it, but certainly not here. Maybe it's because Meatloaf took his American tour money and went to Australia with it, which made RCA instantly, understandably, pull the plug on his album.  At the time I wasn't able to collect any overseas royalties unless I sold off a piece of the publishing to a European company.  I chose a London based company and to be paid in British pounds.  At the time the dollar was almost equal to the pound.  Because the dollar became so weak compared to the pound, the exchange rate alone increased my earnings by 50% over the past 34 years.  Unfortunately, now that we're in the digital era, my windfall has basically slowed to a trickle.
I really only mentioned it to sort of thumb my nose at the knee jerk reaction to any drug use these days.  I apologize for the grandstanding. It's just that so many people who write all these things about "creating under the influence" have no first hand knowledge, so it really doesn't cut it with me.  
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: uburoibob on March 14, 2008, 11:04:19 PM
I didn't think you were grandstanding at all. I love your posts, so please, excuse me asking. I wasn't being nosey - I really wanted to know! You represent as a person of great experience and never flaunt it. When you bring it up, it's very matter of fact.

Bob

2001 Parker Fly Single 2 Silver  â€¢ 1997 Parker Fly Concert Burnt Butterscotch  â€¢  1999 Parker Fly Artist Custom Hardtail Butterscotch  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Transparent Dark Blue  â€¢  1998 Fly Classic in Cherry Red with DiBurro Roland Mod •  http://bobmartin1111.com
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: BrainWorm on March 15, 2008, 03:11:22 AM
I love that Meatloaf song "Paradise By The Dashboard Lights."

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: bno on March 15, 2008, 07:04:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by prjacobs
I really only mentioned it to sort of thumb my nose at the knee jerk reaction to any drug use these days.  I apologize for the grandstanding. It's just that so many people who write all these things about "creating under the influence" have no first hand knowledge, so it really doesn't cut it with me.  
Please understand that it's not personal.  I was around then, too.  And I do know where you are coming from.  'We' as a musician culture tend to romanticize 'that' lifestyle.  For every one of 'you' that experienced a successful moment of serendipty that bore fruit, there were thousands that were just potted plants thinking that there was magic in the garden.  I only wanted to reinforce that Gershwin, Zappa, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Stockhausen, Cage, Bach, Glass, McLaughlin, Corea, et al. are on the other side of the coin.  If substance abuse wasn't a reliable human foible, rehab wouldn't be a successful business model.

Enough of that.  The real substance of this entire discussion revolves around the real work that musicians have to do to be better musicians.  Good work, Lou.  Interesting perspective, Picks.  And I do understand where you're coming from Paul.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: prjacobs on March 15, 2008, 08:29:27 PM
BNO,
I was just being playful, because I couldn't help but come to the conclusion that so much amazing music has been written by people when they were high.  Most people can do that without becoming substance abusers. I'd also like to say that I've had more than a successful moment of serendipity that bore fruit.  I've had a lifetime of success, based initially on talent and then on a lot of work. I've been paid for decades to constantly have moments of revelation and serendipity.  My job is to write something great, all of the time and I don't need pot to do it.  I do it on command.  I don't have to search deep inside for some magic moment, it's just there. That's the fun of it!  By the way, I also played with Zappa, but that's another story...  Sightread a lot of his music. Not something I'd like to do high; too much hand-eye coordination involved.  Those notes come at you pretty fast... But I do know a couple of musicians who worked extensively with him who were "recreational." Frank once asked them not to smoke pot and they told him where to go... They also never made mistakes.   I must admit, I'm more impressed with his guitar playing now than I was then...  Hey, I'm not sitting around staring at my navel.  Like most everyone else on the forum, I'm studying, practicing and hopefully growing as a musician and a composer.  And I play a mean Giant Steps:) Lastly,  if you want some original music in the style of Stravinsky, Stockhausen, Cage, Bach, Glass, McLaughlin, Corea, let me know.  I'll smoke a joint and come up with something that you'll love!
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: Bill on March 16, 2008, 07:38:02 AM
Music is its own drug. It changes brain waves and can be mind altering. Introduced to us in vivo from our mothers heartbeat and used by primative man to induce communal trance, its more primal to us than our own conscienceness and as autonomic as breathing.

It is capable of inducing thought but doesn't require it.

Like smell, it must have some strong hardwiring in the brain that evokes recognition without the need for much processing.

One things for sure, my music smells without much processing. [:D]

(Even smells with a lot of processing)
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: prjacobs on March 16, 2008, 08:56:03 AM
Back to Giant Steps....
One possible way of using the song as a learning tool would be to change the time values while you play.  Not forever, but just perhaps as a starting point. For instance, if you essentially quadrupled the note values, so that instead of half notes, you'd have 2 measures each for the beginning melody notes to jam on.  Carry this through the whole tune. This might give one the opportunity to establish a variety of possible choices for each chord change instead of having them fly by.  I'd also look at each chord and see what triads were contained in it.  I'm not suggesting that this is the only way to look at the chords, just one easy way to jump in. For example, an E flat M7 would contain an E flat major triad and a G minor triad.  Since you're playing slowly, you'd have the opportunity to explore playing in those different keys on top of any given chord. After playing the changes slowly and building up an understanding of what you do, than perhaps only double the time values; and then play it as written.  Hopefully by working carefully, you will have built up a reservoir of licks to draw on.
If you want to really get into it, transpose Giant Steps into all 12 keys.  My method was to practice 2 keys a day, each key a flatted 5th apart, going around the cycle of fifths, covering all of the keys in 6 days, with one day of rest. (That day of rest seems to be a Western tradition:) So, on day 1 - C,G flat, Day 2 - G, D flat, Day 3 - D, A flat, etc.  If you can play Giant Steps in all 12 keys with confidence, you've done some good work!
Why not play it in 3, making the first few notes dotted half notes, etc.  That swing, shuffle feel brings a whole different set of improvisational possibilities.
There are many different ways of looking at harmony and we seem to have a variety of viewpoints that resonate with us.  Find whatever speaks to you and go for it! Digest what you feel you need to know, put in the hours, and in the end, the hands, heart and soul will take over.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: davecan on March 16, 2008, 09:29:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by prjacobs

Back to Giant Steps....
etc...



I just stumbled across this thread and was about to suggest slowing it down.  But you said it much more eloquently, with many great suggestions.  BRAVO.

P.S.- melody is hauntingly beautiful when played at 25% of the intended tempo.
P.P.S. - I play the whole thing with only one scale, it's called the chromatic scale.  [8D]


dave candido
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Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: BrainWorm on March 17, 2008, 01:57:00 AM
I would probably consider the Eb Maj7 as the same key as the G minor. Seeing if several consecutive chords were in the same key.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: prjacobs on March 17, 2008, 06:30:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by BrainWorm

I would probably consider the Eb Maj7 as the same key as the G minor. Seeing if several consecutive chords were in the same key.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."



I'm assuming that you're referring to Eb major, since Eb maj7 is a chord and not a key; but I'm not trying to be picky, I'm just trying to provide a simple jumping off point for some harmonic exploration.  I would not consider Eb Maj the same key as g minor, just because they contain the same notes. After all, when you play a g minor scale it has a totally different sound and mood than Eb major. The same is true if you jam in Eb major or g minor. If we take a look at any of our famous ii,V,I progressions and examine the minor 7th chord, say, the a minor 7th in Giant Steps, we could also apply the same basic theory. In fact, let's add the 9th and 11th on to that chord so that it contains, a,c,e,g,b,and d; Strictly for improvisational experimentation.  You have: An a minor triad, C Major triad, e minor triad and a G Major triad.  By adding the upper extensions to a basic minor 7th chord, you now have some different keys to improvise in. A basic way of achieving some polytonality.
Every one of these different Major and minor explorations will feel different when played on top of a given chord, regardless of how many common notes are shared.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: BrainWorm on March 18, 2008, 03:12:27 AM
Which G minor scale would you play over the G minor chord?

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: prjacobs on March 18, 2008, 08:23:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by BrainWorm

Which G minor scale would you play over the G minor chord?

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."



I'm not sure if I understand your question.  It seems to me that with Giant Steps, as with jazz in general, the addition of Maj.7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, the alteration of 5ths, 9ths, etc., provide us with more harmonic material than just a major or minor triad. Not just more triadic choices, but many others. As to which scale to play over a g minor chord; it might depend on how the g minor chord is placed in a song.  What is the melody note when that chord occurs.  Is the g minor chord, say, going to a C7 and are we in the key of F. Maybe the g minor chord is the IV chord and you're in d minor.  That might suggest  using an f sharp as a "lower neighbor" to refer it back to the tonic key.  Is the melody going up or coming down.  Is the song in the process of creating tension or resolving it.  To me, those factors and many more would influence what I'd play over a g minor chord.
Title: Giant Steps Analysis
Post by: BrainWorm on March 19, 2008, 03:33:31 AM
It's so late at night I don't have time to try to figure these things out.

"Brainverms come crawling and creeping and eat you when you're sleeping."