The Parker Guitars Forum

Parker Lounge => EQUIPMENT, SET-UP, AND SETTINGS => Topic started by: PeterMa on December 19, 2011, 11:11:28 PM

Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: PeterMa on December 19, 2011, 11:11:28 PM
I am having troubles with signal bleed between the peizo and humbuckers.  Has anyone successfully gone wireless in stereo?

I am using 2 wireless transmitters & receivers using a stereo cable out to the transmiters-the cable is definately not the problem.  As far as I can tell, the bleed is occurring within the guitar itself.

My theory is that since both lines share the same ground, signal bleed occurs.  Everything works fine when I use my stero cable(eliminating the wireless system).

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 20, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
What I usually see people say when there is signal bleed through is that it's the pickup switch that is the cause of the problem. Several people have said that the problem went away when they replaced the switch. YMMV.

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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: simonlock on December 20, 2011, 12:30:28 PM
Martone was stereo wireless for the Satriani tour. He posted a video on youtube about the system. I doubt it'll solve your problem but maybe it'll give you some ideas.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: PeterMa on December 20, 2011, 01:03:20 PM
It happens on all of my Parkers.  I tried the system through 6 guitars and it bled through on all of them.  

Maybe Martone can help.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 20, 2011, 01:28:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMa

It happens on all of my Parkers.  I tried the system through 6 guitars and it bled through on all of them.


Oh, well then that's a different story! I thought we were talking about one guitar...

EDIT: I don't think that a common ground has anything to do with signal bleed through. If you send a signal to ground it disappears. Maybe it's "crosstalk" between the receivers themselves.

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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: PeterMa on December 20, 2011, 01:48:56 PM
I have set the frequencies as far apart as possible on the transmitters to eliminate crosstalk.  When they are hooked into two different guitars, there are no problems-no crosstalk or signal bleed.  It only occurs when running stereo out of the Parker.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 20, 2011, 01:58:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMa

I have set the frequencies as far apart as possible on the transmitters to eliminate crosstalk.  When they are hooked into two different guitars, there are no problems-no crosstalk or signal bleed.  It only occurs when running stereo out of the Parker.


I'm not sure what the deal is with that. Must have something to do with the circuitry of the guitar itself.

Which model Parkers do you have? Are they refined or pre-refined?

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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: PeterMa on December 20, 2011, 02:04:26 PM
I have both.  I also tried it with my Niteflys-same thing.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 20, 2011, 02:14:45 PM
Hmm... interesting. The pre-refined and refined electronics are more or less the same except that the refined electronics have a solid state "smart switch" IC chip instead of physical switches like the pre-refined Flys have.

I was hoping that maybe it was a case of the "smart switch" IC chip getting confused or something, but I don't think that is the problem here since both refined and pre-refined have the same problem.

It could be a case of how the thing is wired & designed. It might be some kind of "design flaw", if you will, where at audio frequencies it might have some crosstalk but it's at such a low level that you can't really hear it (as in you have it plugged straight into signal chain via hardwired cables). But at radio frequencies (wireless) it gets picked up, amplified and then reproduced at the other end. That's my theory on this one...

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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: PeterMa on December 20, 2011, 02:26:46 PM
I have thought of that as well Paul.  I attempted to lower the gain on the units with that thought in mind and that didn't work either.

I think that I may not be able to go wireless the way that I want.

When performing I need both lines to be completely independant, otherwise I get overtalk on a loop through the acoustic line or dissonant notes in the electric side.  I use the switch on the guitar a lot when performing to switch between the piezo and Humbucker.  Unfortunately, I don't think that the average Parker owner uses these the same as I do.  I have tried to work it just using my volume pedals but it's way too much tapdancing and doesn't help when looping.

Of course I've dropped a ton of cash on 2 high end Sennheiser units that I'll take a bath on if I can't figure out how to make them work.  

I'm hoping that I am missing something.

Ugh.

Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 20, 2011, 02:36:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMa

I have thought of that as well Paul.  I attempted to lower the gain on the units with that thought in mind and that didn't work either.


I think it has to do with the process of signal reproduction in the wireless transmitter itself. Messing with the gain of the units won't help with that. You have to kill the problem at the source, and by the process of elimination, we can deduce that it's something to do with the guitar's electronics. I'm not sure what the solution is for this problem. Maybe a different brand won't do it?

You could try contacting Martone and see if he can offer some advice.

__/\\/\\__PJM__/\\/\\__
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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: PeterMa on December 20, 2011, 02:44:13 PM
I emailed Martone an hour ago, hopefully he is around to get back to me.  I also found video of him with a stereo wireless rig that sounded great-so there is a chance.  

Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: PeterMa on December 20, 2011, 02:46:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by simonlock

Martone was stereo wireless for the Satriani tour. He posted a video on youtube about the system. I doubt it'll solve your problem but maybe it'll give you some ideas.



Simon, I can't find the video where he is talking about his rig, do you know what the link is for it or any search paramaters that I can put in to find it??

Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: billy on December 20, 2011, 03:41:31 PM
You might be getting crosstalk from poor shielding at your cables and/or proximity between transmitters.  (I don't know if anyone is making stereo transmitters but that would probably be the way to go.)  The frequency band of the system may also have some influence.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: PeterMa on December 20, 2011, 04:35:36 PM
Thanks Billy.  I tried seperating both the transmitters and receivers with no luck and all of the cables I am using are all high end Mogambi-including the custom cables I hade made for the transmitters.

I spoke to some more people and the thought is that the shared ground is the problem.  These wireless transmitters were not designed to share a ground.  I am essentially grounding the 2 wireless units together by using one cable which seems to be raising a little havoc with frequencies in the Parker.  

Martones rig looks to be set up so that he is using either the peizo OR Humbuckers-not both at the same time, which is not how I run my rig.  

I'm still searching.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 20, 2011, 05:38:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMa

I spoke to some more people and the thought is that the shared ground is the problem.  These wireless transmitters were not designed to share a ground.  I am essentially grounding the 2 wireless units together by using one cable which seems to be raising a little havoc with frequencies in the Parker.


Simple experiment to test this theory: isolate one of those grounds. You would need a splitter box with a ground lift (like my 1flyBOB) in order to do that, though.

I don't know enough about RF design to say whether a shared ground is a problem or not. With RF frequencies, I do know that things get pretty weird real fast and stuff that is no big deal at audio frequencies are a big deal at RF frequencies.

All ground is in audio frequencies is the zero point between the tops and bottoms of the AC waves. If it is a ground thing, it's theoretically as simple as disconnecting the ground from either the tip or ring of your (I assume) stereo cable - which may or may not cause a new set of problems. [:0]

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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: jefsummers on December 20, 2011, 07:14:15 PM
In the original post, you say everything works fine when you use the stereo cable instead of the wireless system. This would seem to eliminate the Parker as the source of the problem, and would suggest that the problem is with the wireless implementation.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: billy on December 20, 2011, 10:12:13 PM
yeah, basically any connection point is suspect when it comes to RF.  That includes the connections right on the transmitters as well as the cables you're using to hook them up to your guitar.

Agree that the guitar is probably not the problem though RF can do weird things.  Might be the piezos don't play well with RF, but most likely IMO is poor shielding in the cables or transmitter jacks.

Keep us posted, I've long thought about trying to do stereo wireless.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 21, 2011, 09:01:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by billy

most likely IMO is poor shielding in the cables or transmitter jacks.


Yeah, could be. Good shielding would theoretically dump any extraneous noise to ground - unless the problem is generated by the transmitter and the bleedtrough is done at the IF or HF amplfier. If that were the case, then there is really no cure for that except for maybe trying a different wireless system which may be designed differently and not have this problem.


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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: 908ssp on December 21, 2011, 09:27:20 AM
It might be a pain but you might want to try wiring the Parker so that the mag signal doesn't go through the piezo pre-amp board at all. Plus the way the Parkers are wired the signal not heard is sent to ground so it might be the common ground that is the problem. With both piezo and mags on neither sent to ground the individual signals might stay clean even though they share the ground at the jack. Another option might include a second output jack so both signals are isolated you would have to isolate one of the signals from the guitar ground shielding and leave one hooked to the shielding to get 100% independent signals.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 21, 2011, 09:44:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by 908ssp

Plus the way the Parkers are wired the signal not heard is sent to ground so it might be the common ground that is the problem.


If you send a signal to ground, it has zero voltage - the signal goes away.

Ignoring piezo pickups for a moment, if common ground was a problem, then we should all be having bleedthrough problems when our neck pickups are switched off and only the bridge pickup is on and so on because they all have a common ground. But this is not what happens in the real world. Ground is the point of zero voltage. Send a signal to ground and it disappears because it has no voltage. This for audio frequency signals anyway. I don't know what happens with RF signals other than everything becomes much more critical with shielding, etc. Ground is ground no matter what frequency the signal is - but all grounds are not necessarily equal. Sometimes they design stuff to work on an elevated ground to reduce noise. I still don't think it should be a problem in this case because both units should be working on the same ground level. I dunno... just a weird problem.


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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 21, 2011, 10:13:57 AM
Here's another possibility one of my sources with many years of experience in RF and audio has suggested:

I could be picking up one of the wireless transmitters inside the guitar itself.

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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: ekornbakke on December 21, 2011, 10:37:35 AM
Hello Peter.

Interesting topic and problem!

Just a couple of ideas to try. I see you are using traditional Sennheiser RF stuff. Have you tried Digital wireless from Line 6, just to see if it changes anything??
(On a general basis I can recommend trying the Line 6, works nicely without having to worry about rf signals.)


Or as a troubleshooting effort, try using one sennheiser and one digital Line 6?

Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 21, 2011, 10:57:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ekornbakke

Hello Peter.

Interesting topic and problem!

Just a couple of ideas to try. I see you are using traditional Sennheiser RF stuff. Have you tried Digital wireless from Line 6, just to see if it changes anything??
(On a general basis I can recommend trying the Line 6, works nicely without having to worry about rf signals.)


Or as a troubleshooting effort, try using one sennheiser and one digital Line 6?


Worth a try. But if the guitar itself is picking up one of those transmitters, it may not help with the problem. It could be that the pickups themselves are acting as a receiver, and so it would be a loop that can't be fixed.

RF stuff is a beach ain't it?

__/\\/\\__PJM__/\\/\\__
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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: ekornbakke on December 21, 2011, 01:38:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Marossy
Worth a try. But if the guitar itself is picking up one of those transmitters, it may not help with the problem. It could be that the pickups themselves are acting as a receiver, and so it would be a loop that can't be fixed.

RF stuff is a beach ain't it?



Yes, well the point is that the Line 6 wireless doesn't use rf signals at all, it is entirely digital. I am no expert, but I don't see how the guitar could be able to pick up a signal like that?! Anyway it will be very interesting to see the outcome of these experiments!
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 21, 2011, 01:55:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ekornbakke

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Marossy
Worth a try. But if the guitar itself is picking up one of those transmitters, it may not help with the problem. It could be that the pickups themselves are acting as a receiver, and so it would be a loop that can't be fixed.

RF stuff is a beach ain't it?



Yes, well the point is that the Line 6 wireless doesn't use rf signals at all, it is entirely digital. I am no expert, but I don't see how the guitar could be able to pick up a signal like that?! Anyway it will be very interesting to see the outcome of these experiments!


Guitar pickups can pick up all kinds of noise, especially if they are high impedance passive magnetic pickups. RF signals can be picked up by anything that amplifies the signal - a guitar pedal, an amp or active electronics. Most guitar pedals and amps use a cap/resistor network on the input to dump RF signals to ground, but some older effects can pick up RF noise. Old wah pedals will sometimes do this.

Secondarily, high impedance passive pickups can act like an antenna. That's why single coil pickups hum, they pick up 60 Hz EMI from surrounding objects like transformers, motors, lighting, etc. Humbuckers don't do this by design but it doesn't make them immune to RF.

You have two RF transmitters in close proximity to each other and the guitar. I can see how the pickups and/or electronics could pick up the signal from one transmitter and send it to the other. It's unusual, but not impossible from what I can tell.

I don't know that digital would eradicate this behaviour or not. Possibly since it's not an analog process. Might be worth a shot...

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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: PeterMa on December 21, 2011, 11:14:37 PM
Dave Martone has shed some light on the issue.  He was very helpful.  I think that if you are ok with some signal bleed that you can go stereo.  Dave said that he still gets a little bleed but it isn't that bad.  Unfortunately for me, my toggle switch was rendered useless so that both lines were full on, regardless of where the toggle was placed.  This doesn't work for how I play so I am headed back to cables.  

Thanks everyone for your ideas & input.

I think that the bottom line is that due to the electronics in a Parker, that it does not lend itself to completely independant signal path wireless application with the current technology that is available.  The RF has a field day with everything and is too much effort for me to tame.

Live and learn.  

Anybody want a wireless unit or two?

Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: ekornbakke on December 22, 2011, 05:09:48 AM
No, dont't give up yet, Peter. I do not consider this case closed until you have tried these:

http://line6.com/relay/

I don't know what your sennheisers cost you, but these are probably a lot less expensive as well. (I just know my Sennheiser In Ear Monitoring system was crazy expensive, while my Line6 G50 was really affordable.)

I repeat: there is no RF whatsoever on this system. If that has anything to do with the problem in the first place, as you suggest in your latest post, this should at least make some kind of difference.
Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: Paul Marossy on December 22, 2011, 08:58:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMa

Dave Martone has shed some light on the issue.  He was very helpful.  I think that if you are ok with some signal bleed that you can go stereo.  Dave said that he still gets a little bleed but it isn't that bad.  Unfortunately for me, my toggle switch was rendered useless so that both lines were full on, regardless of where the toggle was placed.  This doesn't work for how I play so I am headed back to cables.  

Thanks everyone for your ideas & input.


I'm not too surprised that he has a little bit of bleed through as well.


quote:
Originally posted by PeterMa

I think that the bottom line is that due to the electronics in a Parker, that it does not lend itself to completely independant signal path wireless application with the current technology that is available.  The RF has a field day with everything and is too much effort for me to tame.

Live and learn.  

Anybody want a wireless unit or two?


Even if you had two completely independent signal paths via seperate output jacks, you could still have the same problem if the pickups are picking up the signal from one of the transmitters. What we don't know is if digital units will eliminate this problem. I tend to think it would because it's digital and the pickups are not likely to pick up the signal. But then again, you might get something that sounds like cell phone interference coming through. I for one would be interested to find out if works or not!

Anyway, I might be interested in buying one of those Sennheiser units if you are seriously going to be selling them...

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Title: Has anyone gone stereo wireless?
Post by: bembamboo on January 01, 2012, 02:02:53 AM
Wwkd?  What would ken do?